How can you deliver checkmate with a king?

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lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

Imagine that you're in a room with an activated death laser pointing at you, blocked by a rock. If the rock moved, would an observer say that the rock killed you? Or was it the laser?

the rock, because the rock moving resulted in my death

But it was the laser that killed you, correct?

At this point I think he is just trolling.

If anyone here is trolling, it's you.

Except you are smart. You know the answer. You even admitted in one of the diagrams it was the rook that checks. So you know. I know you know.

lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:

So the rook checks. And, because the rook covers all the possible escape squares, the black king is in checkmate. The position below is a checkmate position. However, just because the rook checks does not mean the rook checkmates. The piece that moves, and, due to its action, results in an enemy king being in checkmate, is the piece that causes the enemy king to be checkmated, through its action. That piece is the king.

You're losing this argument for the simple reason that you're providing invalid, terribly-thought-out "evidence".

And as the rules dictates, it's the piece that checks (attacks) that checkmates. The white king is not attacking. The white king is not attacking the square the black king occupies, is it? Either it is or it isn't. If it isn't, then it's not checkmating. Again, the rules only define the checkmate position, NO mention is made of how that position came to exist so no consideration is given to the previous move.

This is easy to verify. You claim the action of the last move results in checkmate. Where in the rules does it say that? It doesn't. BUT, it does say the action of the attack on the enemy kings square (in this case the rook) results in checkmate.

See how that works? Your claim is nowhere to be found in the rules, it's your own interpretation. My claim is found in the rules, in black in white. No interpretation needed.

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

Imagine that you're in a room with an activated death laser pointing at you, blocked by a rock. If the rock moved, would an observer say that the rock killed you? Or was it the laser?

the rock, because the rock moving resulted in my death

But it was the laser that killed you, correct?

At this point I think he is just trolling.

If anyone here is trolling, it's you.

Except you are smart. You know the answer. You even admitted in one of the diagrams it was the rook that checks. So you know. I know you know.

I admitted the rook checks - which everyone knows. Then I continued that checkmate is an entire position, which everyone should know. All the rook does in the position below is check. Everything else in the position contributes to the checkmate. So the piece that causes the checkmate by moving - the king - is the checkmating piece.

Not to mention, even chess.com agrees with the truth, as moving the king as shown above warrants the 'Killer King' achievement, not 'Killer Rook'!

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:

So the rook checks. And, because the rook covers all the possible escape squares, the black king is in checkmate. The position below is a checkmate position. However, just because the rook checks does not mean the rook checkmates. The piece that moves, and, due to its action, results in an enemy king being in checkmate, is the piece that causes the enemy king to be checkmated, through its action. That piece is the king.

You're losing this argument for the simple reason that you're providing invalid, terribly-thought-out "evidence".

And as the rules dictates, it's the piece that checks (attacks) that checkmates. The white king is not attacking. The white king is not attacking the square the black king occupies, is it? Either it is or it isn't. If it isn't, then it's not checkmating. Again, the rules only define the checkmate position, NO mention is made of how that position came to exist so no consideration is given to the previous move.

YOU ALREADY AGREED WITH ME THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE, NOW YOU'RE CHANGING YOUR MIND!?

KieferSmith
Arisktotle wrote:

Occasionally people are confused about the identity of the piece delivering a checkmate. It's not the piece attacking the king but the piece that was moved last to get into the checkmate position. These two are often the same but not in a discovered checkmate!

lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

Imagine that you're in a room with an activated death laser pointing at you, blocked by a rock. If the rock moved, would an observer say that the rock killed you? Or was it the laser?

the rock, because the rock moving resulted in my death

But it was the laser that killed you, correct?

At this point I think he is just trolling.

If anyone here is trolling, it's you.

Except you are smart. You know the answer. You even admitted in one of the diagrams it was the rook that checks. So you know. I know you know.

I admitted the rook checks - which everyone knows. Then I continued that checkmate is an entire position. All the rook does in the position below is check. Everything else in the position contributes to the checkmate. So the piece that causes the checkmate by moving - the king - is the checkmating piece.

Not to mention, even chess.com agrees with the truth, as moving the king as shown above warrants the 'Killer King' achievement, not 'Killer Rook'!

Most people already know the killer king award is based on moving the king to reveal a checkmate. It's a rare achievement. It's not an award where the king checkmates the opponent. A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

I love how you're saying things that

a) everyone already knows

b) does not contribute to the argument

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It's not an award where the king checkmates the opponent.

It is though. That's what it says. We've already explained everything about the action of checkmating, what else do you want?

lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

I love how you're saying things that

a) everyone already knows

b) does not contribute to the argument

Where did I say "everyone already knows"? Is this your interpretation again or did I actually say that?

It's germane to the discussion because the whole topic is if a king can deliver checkmate. No, a king cannot check or checkmate another king. As the rules dictate. A king cannot attack the square the enemy king occupies. Which is the definition of check.

Chess.com is free to call the award anything they want. But I assume most people know a king cannot check, or checkmate, another king. It's a rare achievement, because most discovered checkmates are with other pieces.

intrinity_5

loaelaeloeaoealooleaolea

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

I love how you're saying things that

a) everyone already knows

b) does not contribute to the argument

Where did I say "everyone already knows"? Is this your interpretation again or did I actually say that?

Neither, it's just fact. Everyone knows kings can't touch. But that's irrelevant. As I have said countless times, if, due to a king move, the opposing king is put into checkmate, the king caused checkmate, and therefore, checkmated.

lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

I love how you're saying things that

a) everyone already knows

b) does not contribute to the argument

Where did I say "everyone already knows"? Is this your interpretation again or did I actually say that?

Neither, it's just fact. Everyone knows kings can't touch. But that's irrelevant. As I have said countless times, if, due to a king move, the opposing king is put into checkmate, the king caused checkmate, and therefore, checkmated.

I understand what you are saying, but the rules say differently. The rules say the piece attacking the enemy kings square causes checkmate. Where in the rules does it say the piece that moves is the deliverer of checkmate?

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

A king cannot check another king, that is against the rules.

I love how you're saying things that

a) everyone already knows

b) does not contribute to the argument

Where did I say "everyone already knows"? Is this your interpretation again or did I actually say that?

Neither, it's just fact. Everyone knows kings can't touch. But that's irrelevant. As I have said countless times, if, due to a king move, the opposing king is put into checkmate, the king caused checkmate, and therefore, checkmated.

I understand what you are saying, but the rules say differently. The rules say the piece attacking the enemy kings square causes checkmate. Where in the rules does it say the piece that moves is the deliverer of checkmate?

It doesn't say that in the rules, but it also doesn't say the opposite. I am taking my information from two sources. 1: The dictionary. 2: My brain. And you can't even say my brain is wrong because you called me smart in post #204!

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:

The rules say the piece attacking the enemy kings square causes checkmate.

Where does it say that? Or are you just making that up because you desperately want to win this trash argument?

Btw, I want you to quote the definition of checkmating as an action, not checkmate as a position, from the rules. Otherwise your "evidence" is invalid.

lfPatriotGames

You are smart. That's why I think there has to be some information in the rule book to clarify this. I found a couple rules, covering both check and checkmate. What they require, the circumstances. So that is what I am using to base my opinion on.

I understand that maybe the rules do not back up what you are saying, and instead you are using the dictionary (which I am too) and your brain. So just like the analogy of the rock and the laser or the slowpoke and the speeder, I will have to weigh all the evidence. And the vast majority of the evidence (the rules of the game) trumps the opinions of individual players.

If there were a disagreement about, say how en passant works, promotion, castling, or even a knight move, what resource would we use to figure out an answer? All of those chess related things don't make a whole lot of sense, even defy common sense to some degree. But in the end we would probably have to say the rulebook is the final arbitrator, wouldn't you say?

KieferSmith

But the rules of the game aren't even evidence in our argument! Our argument is about checkmating (the action), while the rules define checkmate (the position). Please quote the part of the rules that define the action of checkmating, and I will accept that as proof if it's valid. Which, based on the "evidence" you've provided so far, it probably isn't.

lfPatriotGames
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

The rules say the piece attacking the enemy kings square causes checkmate.

Where does it say that? Or are you just making that up because you desperately want to win this trash argument?

Btw, I want you to quote the definition of checkmating as an action, not checkmate as a position, from the rules. Otherwise your "evidence" is invalid.

4. Objective and Scoring 
4A. Checkmate.
The objective of each of the two players in a game of chess is to win the game by checkmating the opponent’s king. 
A player’s king is checkmated when the square it occupies is attacked by one or more of the opponent’s pieces and 
the player has no move that escapes such attack. See also Rule 12, Check; 12C, Responding to check; and 13A,

Notice the word "attack". That is an active, present action. Because checkmate is a position, it requires an active present attack. Not one from a few moves ago, and certainly not one in the future (the game is over). But a present attack. No mention is ever made of the previous move regarding the attack.

lfPatriotGames

"square it occupies IS ATTACKED" Verb, present tense. Present action. Not past action. Present action.

That sentence, that phrase can't get more verby more actiony, more present tense than that.

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
KieferSmith wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

The rules say the piece attacking the enemy kings square causes checkmate.

Where does it say that? Or are you just making that up because you desperately want to win this trash argument?

Btw, I want you to quote the definition of checkmating as an action, not checkmate as a position, from the rules. Otherwise your "evidence" is invalid.

4. Objective and Scoring 
4A. Checkmate.
The objective of each of the two players in a game of chess is to win the game by checkmating the opponent’s king. 
A player’s king is checkmated when the square it occupies is attacked by one or more of the opponent’s pieces and 
the player has no move that escapes such attack. See also Rule 12, Check; 12C, Responding to check; and 13A,

Notice the word "attack". That is an active, present action. Because checkmate is a position, it requires an active present attack. Not one from a few moves ago, and certainly not one in the future (the game is over). But a present attack. No mention is ever made of the previous move regarding the attack.

Yes, and the word attack is, in this case, a synonym of check, which is very different from checkmate. You quoted the definition of a checkmate position once again. Congratulations, you don't know the definition of the word "verb"!

KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:

"square it occupies IS ATTACKED" Verb, present tense. Present action. Not past action. Present action.

That sentence, that phrase can't get more verby more actiony, more present tense than that.

That's just half of checkmate - check. The piece that checks is not the piece that checkmates!