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Spaceysmile

Sth come my mind when looking position again 

If The race goes between b and F , it leave A and h pawns . At A case that Queens traded , that pawns Race , and First pawn to Queen win The Game due h1 and a8 being at Same diagonal 

white King would probably go a4/5 after taking b5 , going C-file seems wrong Unless All else fails , black King Will probably went g4 to be Closer to h-pawn .

But I still cant see A win for either sides , but can say that This is better for black, even they cant win it seems to me they are The Side that pressing for that .

KeSetoKaiba
btickler wrote:

...If the solution is a race to queens and then slogging through 2 queens trying to force promotions while delaying the other, then I'm not even going to attempt that analysis .

Quite honest;y , though, this looks completely drawn and I am only accepting there's a solution because you said there is one.

If it is any comfort, this puzzle isn't that kind of position. You can stop your "analysis" when you promote and think the game is either won or drawn happy.png

KeSetoKaiba

posts #155 through #159 is all solid analysis and what I was hoping when I created this forum. I won't give any clues about the lines shown (yet - as I'll post the "solution" in about a week) but I will say that the approaches stated is extremely similar to how I approached this position when I originally attempted it. @Spaceysmile (post #156) especially resembled my way of thinking where I imagine branching lines based on ideas by White or Black (like pushing the pawns for a Queen race, King over in x direction and then race etc.) 

@PawnstormPossie (post #159) I like your "OTB analysis" of offering a draw and getting it declined wink.png

Spaceysmile

I find something Interesting that white cant take a4 If black King goes to e4 : A square  that force white King to stay Closer to their pawn . This leaves only a5 and C-file , which at both I think black may find sth 

I need to analyze that deeper probably but This seems an Interesting occurance , both F-file and a5 square are bad places for wK , especially when at a5 variation black can march their King to c6 with tempo .

First , Let's look that beaitiful variation : 1.Kd4 Kf5 2.Kxd5 Kxf4 3. Kc6 Ke4! 4.Kxb5 f5 5.Kxa4 ? f4 6.b5 Kd5 7.Ka5 f3 8.b6 Kc6 9.Ka6 f2 10.b7 f1Q+ and black wins 

After 5.Ka5 , I cant see A win , after 5.Kc5 black wins Because they Queen First , Than black has Qc1+ which force King either go b-file(which black can play Qb1+ , exchange Queens and win KP endgame )  or b8-h2 diagonal ( which black can play Qf4+)

After Kc6 white can go d7 , so black cant just win with playing Qc1+ , white's position feel awful but I cant see A win outright 

Spaceysmile

PS - 5.Kc6 is Also win for black , Because after Race black has Qc4+ , If K went b-Side Qb3+ wins , so white has to go d7 ( d6 is Same ) Than black has Qd5+ , with following Queen exchange and win . White cant block check with Qd6 as well Because Result is still win for black . 

( Assuming I am not making A miscalculation here ) 

5.Ka5 , I still couldnt find The win , Unless white misplays . One variation is 5...f4 6.b5 Kd5 7.b6 Kc6 8.Ka6 f3 9.b7 f2 10.b8Q f1Q + , Than here is hard . 

For example , white cant hide their King with 11.Ka7 Qf7+ 12.Ka8 , Because 12...Qd5! and black wins .

The question is What happens at 11.Ka5

What happens at 11.Ka7 Qf7+ 12.Ka6 

If black have win at both , it is win , Otherwise white can hold that barely .

wajeya

This one is really interesting . I couldn't calculate a decisive result even the final positions are debatable .

For ex : 1. Kd4 , Kf5 2. Kxd5 , Kg4 3.Kc5, Kxh4 4. Kxb5,Kg4 

Here i couldn't decide where the white king should go as i'm trying to avoid forks since black is queening first.Since my pawns are on dark squares i only checked Kxa4 .

5.Kxa4, h4  6.b5, h3 7. b6,h2 7. b7, h1=Q 8. b8=Q , Qd1+   and black doesn't win any pawns with check and if kxf4  i'm assuming this is an easy draw.

I still have to calculate Kxf4 on move 2 but will leave this for later.

wajeya
Spaceysmile wrote:

PS - 5.Kc6 is Also win for black , Because after Race black has Qc4+ , If K went b-Side Qb3+ wins , so white has to go d7 ( d6 is Same ) Than black has Qd5+ , with following Queen exchange and win . White cant block check with Qd6 as well Because Result is still win for black . 

( Assuming I am not making A miscalculation here ) 

5.Ka5 , I still couldnt find The win , Unless white misplays . One variation is 5...f4 6.b5 Kd5 7.b6 Kc6 8.Ka6 f3 9.b7 f2 10.b8Q f1Q + , Than here is hard . 

For example , white cant hide their King with 11.Ka7 Qf7+ 12.Ka8 , Because 12...Qd5! and black wins .

The question is What happens at 11.Ka5

What happens at 11.Ka7 Qf7+ 12.Ka6 

If black have win at both , it is win , Otherwise white can hold that barely .

The depth of Qd5 is amazing , it is worthy of being a seperate puzzle. 

carlosrebelo17

Qb8+ Nxb8 Rd8#

Purslow89

Okay,

It has to start 1.Kd4 Kf5. any other moves lose for whichever colour.

2.Kxd5 Kxf4

3.Kc5 Kg4
4. Kxb5 f5
5.Kxa4 f4
6. b5 f3, 7. b6 f2, 8. b7 f1=Q 
9. b8=Q.... and blacks move.

Lots of drawing options here, but the important thing is that it's black's move, so if there is any colour who can win, it's black.... Personally, I'd reject taking the h pawn until I have taken the a pawn with the queen. White has to let this happen or be in endless checks, starting with 9... Qd1+

The position is so drawn that I'm tempted to say the solution is flawed if it has either colour winning. But like I said in an earlier post, I'd genuinely be amazed if either colour is winning and I'll certainly learn something from this position.

Spaceysmile

What is The issue with #163 ?

DiogenesDue
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Anyone want to help me with post #163?

I'm not sure if there's a win here, but if anyone is going to win it's black.  

 

Spaceysmile

First note: I am still waiting analyzes about my question .

Let's look Pawnstorm's position : 

First thing I realize is black is definitely better , with controlling only open file , and had chance to attack pawns.

The First thing I saw is 1...Rd3 ! force 2.Rg3 , Because Rf1 and Kg2  lose A pawn after Rd2 . After Rg3 , 2...e5 seems good , black can press for win even though I am not sure If it is A win . For example , 3.Rg5 Rxf3 4.Rxe5 Rf1+ 5.Kg2 Rb1 and black wins A pawn . IMO , best move for white is 2.f4 , which after 2...Rf3 3.Rd1  white has enough counterplay . Black is still better , for example after A move Like 3...b6 white has still problems to solve ( passive rook , pawns need to be defended ) but not sure If it is A win or not , but can say easily that black Will gonna torture white for a long time , possibily win . 

DiogenesDue
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Thanks, still not sure I "understand" (LoL the other forum) that I'm going to win.

I am not sure you are going to either wink.png, there's a lot of pawn moves to analyze.  I'm just saying that you have all the winning chances if you hold the opposition by keeping the pawn moves from there forward in perfect equilibrium.  White cannot force you to lose the opposition, you'd have to give it away.

KeSetoKaiba
btickler wrote:
PawnstormPossie wrote:

Anyone want to help me with post #163?

I'm not sure if there's a win here, but if anyone is going to win it's black.  

I don't know. I originally thought this was a dead draw (frustratingly) when you posted this; sure Black has the open file, but I don't know how much it leads too. It reminds me of the "principle of two weaknesses" stating that it usually takes at least two weaknesses to not be able to hold to a draw. The open file favors Black, but can Black create another weakness too? Originally, I thought Black did well to get the draw and move on. 

However, perhaps Black can try to create a "second" weakness instead. If shuffling doesn't work (I admit that my analysis looked at ...Rd2 Rg2 and repeat about twice), then maybe this is Black's best try:

...Rd2 Rg2 ...Rd3 and try to attack White's f or e pawn with the Rook (2nd weakness) by getting the Rook behind White's pawns (Tarrasch rule). Obviously, my glance is superficial. The Kings will come up the board, pawn checks need to be looked at (as @btickler noted in post #175) and the game is still close. I think Black is the better side here, but I wouldn't claim this game has two results. Perhaps if both sides were GMs or engines, but in practical play, either side could fatally lose the game. The main idea here is that Black is slightly better, but I doubt will win if they can't find another "created weakness" to target.

Spaceysmile

I am pretty sure at The endgame btickler found , it is draw If white plays f4 when black pawn is on e6 

So The only way to press that is playing e5 immadieatly 

but Than it should be draw , I cant see black marching until f4 , white should be able to prevent that as I see 

Spaceysmile
KeSetoKaiba yazdı:
Spaceysmile wrote:

Yes , I was Asking for evaluation of 1...Qxc3+ .

Isn't Black crushing White already? ...Qxc3+?? just gives away the Queen after the obvious bxc3 right? I think Black just has to sit tight and convert the position into a win. As @DaddyReza noted, just move the Queen to another square: ...Qa6!? looks bad for White. However, other developing ideas such as ...Nc6 look good for Black too. My evaluation for Qxc3+ is that it is impatient and probably just a blunder (maybe I'm missing something? I don't know). 

Here are my thoughts on the position: 

Pawn structure - Black is much better. Black has two pawn islands and White has three. Plus, Black's "small island" is a deep pawn only two ranks from promotion (on b3). Compare this to White's pawns sitting far back on their 2nd or 3rd rank with the exception of the doubled h-pawns, but Black's King safely blocks the promotion square, so the advanced pawns are of little danger to Black. 

Piece activity - I like Black better here too. White's King is biding its time in the center (somewhat dangerous with Queens on the board, but perhaps okay if an endgame arises soon), but Black's King has an active role of stopping White's h-pawns from advancing/promoting. The open a-file is controlled by Black. True, White may gain control of the c-file, but I think the a-file has more penetration threats. Black can infiltrate on the a-file faster than White can on the c-file. I won't address every piece, but White's are clustered on the bottom right of the board, not doing much, but Black's are more active. 

I realize that my assessment is more positional in description, but I think White is already on the verge of being lost if not already; of course, Qxc3+?? just throws away the advantage. Additionally, I noted how White's King isn't ideally placed with Queens on the board. White wants a Queen trade and I'm sure White would ecstatic to get the Queen for only a Rook.

I somehow overlooked that post  but whatever I can answer it now .

First , I am Pretty sure DaddyReza checked it with computer , saw it Give 0.00 , looked Main variation and say it . Saying that , Because they didnt give any other variation to prove it .

Second , black's position is worse Than You thought , white's chances on kingside effect Game More Than You thought . For example , black cant play Qa6 Because g6 is hanging ( Qxg6 ) with serious threads . Only move I could play Except Qxc3 was Qe8 , which is very Complex . Qxc3 was A dubious move at most , and A practical play Given OTB situation ( at that time , my opponent only had 5 minutes left on Clock , I had 9 )  

Let's look at variations that my opponent had to calculate .

2.bxc3! Ra2+ 3.Kd1 ( Ke1 is similiar , but Kc1 lose to b2+ following Bd3+ ) and 

a) Black has perpatual at least 

b) 3...b2?? fails to 4.Qxg6! , and believe me or not This move is very hard to see ( diagonal retreat moves are generally very hard to foresee ) , white is winning 

c) White should calculate If black can win after  3...Kxh7 !? I never calculated it , Because of I know I had at least draw , and can evaluate If I can win after there 

Als they should See 2.Kxc3 is Lost , after 2.Kxc3 Rc8+!  and 

a)3.Kd4 Ra4# 

b) 3.Kd2 Rc2+ 4.Kd1 Ra1#

c) Kxb3 Ba4+ 4.Ka3 ( 4.Kb4 Rc4+ 5.Ka3 Bd1# ) Bd1+ 5. Kb4 Rc4+ 6.Kb5 Rb7+ 7.Ka5 Nc6 + 8. Ka6 Rcb4 and black mates white 

d) 3.Kb4 Rc4+ 4.Kxb5 Rb7+ 5.Ka5 Nc6+ 6.Ka6 Rcb4 and white cant stop black mating

How Game ended : I didnt Like The position after 1...Qe8 2.Rxb3 , decide to sacrifice Queen . My opponent  missed that they can prevent queening at 2.bxc3 Ra2+ 3.Kd1 b2 variation with 4.Qxg6! , and played Kxc3 , and Lost with being mated .

DiogenesDue
Spaceysmile wrote:

I am pretty sure at The endgame btickler found , it is draw If white plays f4 when black pawn is on e6 

So The only way to press that is playing e5 immadieatly 

but Than it should be draw , I cant see black marching until f4 , white should be able to prevent that as I see 

I had the same thought, and at one point was pursuing e5 as the only "must" move, but I could not make that pan out, and playing e5 immediately gives white the first king move towards center, as well as giving up opposition.  Now it might be possible to force it back during or after the dozens of pawn moves, but that's beyond me or at least beyond what I am willing to do for this analysis wink.png.  So, I settled on what I could try to control, holding the opposition, which is theoretically possible if black counters all white's pawn moves one for one such that white is eventually in zugswang and must allow the black king's incursion.

So, the idea of holding the opposition in the final position could happen in a thousand different ways, but the issue presented was is there a win for black and why does the engine say black holds an advantage, and I would say it's the opposition.  It would be easy enough to check...if the rooks are traded and the engine advantage holds...

Spaceysmile

@DaddyReza What 

First , I am Pretty sure Nd7 or Nc6 isnt computer moves .

Second computer instantly Show 0.00 after Qxc3 with Showing Ra2/1 draw .

If You are telling The truth , You are extremetly lucky with finding computer variation at First try without calculating anything else . I Dont fully believed it Because You say Nothing about critical variations , or havent say something Like " I Dont know If Black can press win here but they had draw at least " , You just Said " it is draw" , and This seems to me More "knowledge" Than " Calculation " 

Spaceysmile
btickler yazdı:
Spaceysmile wrote:

I am pretty sure at The endgame btickler found , it is draw If white plays f4 when black pawn is on e6 

So The only way to press that is playing e5 immadieatly 

but Than it should be draw , I cant see black marching until f4 , white should be able to prevent that as I see 

I had the same thought, and at one point was pursuing e5 as the only "must" move, but I could not make that pan out, and playing e5 immediately gives white the first king move towards center, as well as giving up opposition.  Now it might be possible to force it back during or after the dozens of pawn moves, but that's beyond me or at least beyond what I am willing to do for this analysis .  So, I settled on what I could try to control, holding the opposition, which is theoretically possible if black counters all white's pawn moves one for one such that white is eventually in zugswang and must allow the black king's incursion.

So, the idea of holding the opposition in the final position could happen in a thousand different ways, but the issue presented was is there a win for black and why does the engine say black holds an advantage, and I would say it's the opposition.  It would be easy enough to check...if the rooks are traded and the engine advantage holds...

Yeah e5 Gave white First move , and it Actually help them Because white can march to g4 and prevent black Coming g5 , but it make white's job much harder . They Pretty much cant play f4 , Because exf4 give black further passer . It should be still draw , Because black should play g5/h5 to force white to go back , but that block The squares black King need to pass for Reach f4 .

That endgame is Also Why I thought advantage should be searched at rook endgame .

Spaceysmile
DaddyReza yazdı:

I checked with engine now but the position is white to move and I cannot play qxc3. 

Yes , it is Because I didnt give FEN properly .

But one of my friends checked it post-Game , so I know that It give 0.00 after Qxc3 .

And my problem was You not mentioning 1...Qxc3+ 2.bxc3 Ra2 + 3. Kc1 ( with The Idea answering Ra1+ with Kb2 ) , or 1...Qxc3+ 2.bxc3 Ra2+ 3.Kd1 b2 . I Dont know If You are saying truth , and TBH I Dont care about it . As A general rule , You shouldn't decide on A variation's Result Unless You are sure You calculated/covered All subvariations of that variations . Sorry , I didnt wanted to accuse You or sth Like that , I just thought it is The case , which I shouldn't .

I think We should just drop That topic Because  it Will go nowhere  , and haram thread More Than it help. I am again sorry for assuming it .