Nd4 looks pretty good. 1... Nd4 2. Qg3 (Qd3) Qxc4 3.Bxh6 (Rxd4 exd4) Nxf5, and I think black is holding. 1...hxg5 looks really risky and black woudd have to calculate white's myriad responses: h6, fxg5, Qg3. If this was a longer game, and there was time to calculate, you could see if you come out on top. However, this is a rapid game and I don't think the time investment is worth it. The pin on f7 is also something to consider. 1...b5 and you have lost your poison to nd4. 1...exf4 Looks like white has a nice attacking position. The simple idea is you want to keep files closed on the kingside, and counterattack on the queenside.
Can a 2000+ rated player please explain this position to me?
I wouldnt take on g5, since as a sacrificial player myself I’ve developed a rather cautious perspective when facing sacs and gambits.
I would play Nd4, and the white bishop is attacked on c4 and so is the white queen. After the queen moves somewhere I’d play b5 and b4 and stack on the c-file.
I mostly have to agree with SNUDOO here. Taking is almost surely losing. In positions like these, often the best method is concrete, cold calculation. So if we analyze what happens after hxg5, we see two options for White: a) the immediate h6! further attacking the Kingside and breaking down our defense, and b) fxg5 hitting the knight and preparing h6 next move. In both of these lines, we can also notice that the LS bishop on c4 is pinning f7, so we are in a lot of trouble as after 1. h6 g6 only helps White with fxg6 and Black has no response.
Therefore we can start considering other candidate moves. Nd4 looks like the strongest choice, but we might also consider exf4 as an idea. exf4 immediately also runs into some problems. After Bxf6 Bxf6 Nd5 Qd8, White stands better imo, but there may be even more aggressive continuations available that I'm not seeing right away.
So let's take a look after Nd4... Your concern is Qg3, completely valid btw. I think now though we can insert Nxf5 at any point and be doing fine as it protects g7 and h6 AND attacks g3. The main question we have to answer is whether to take immediately or to proceed with Qxc4 first. The major risk of Qxc4 is Rxd4!! renewing the threat on our King. After recapturing on d4 White has Bxh6 and I don't see a good way to defend. For that reason I would shy away from Qxc4. Even up a rook, it looks like Black would be completely lost. So I would probably settle on 1...Nd4 2. Qg3 Nxf5. and then we can expect 3. Qd3 to hold down the bishop on c4 and also attack the knight on f5. This looks like a mostly safe continuation. We must also consider Qd3 and Rxd4 in place of Qg3, but neither looks terribly troublesome either at first glance.
Another defensive idea I just want to point out is the following: White's biggest threat is some combination of Qg3 and Bxh6 which seemingly can't be defended. We might consider some Rfc8 maneuver followed by Bf8 in the event of Bxh6, holding everything down. Kh8 is another possibility, even right away, sidestepping White's major threats.
To address your other points 3) and 4), I think a Queenside pawn storm is too slow here - period. I would abandon that idea in favor of something else. When originally typing my analysis, I caught myself making some mistakes. This position is very complicated and not straightforward. I looked a bit at some combination of Nd4 followed by exf4 if White goes Qg3, but then I realized this is losing. I don't think that this is an effective way to try and alleviate pressure in this position.
I hope this helps! ![]()
Play Nd4 and then Rac8 followed by a queenside pawn storm. Taking on g5 looks okay but you need extremely accurate play to be winning.
"1) The white bishop on g5 is hanging. White is purposely sacrificing this piece in order to destroy the pawn shelter in front of our king. Do we capture it or is it too risky?"
The only way to answer that question is by concrete calculation. 1...hxg5 2. hxg5 - In a long time control game, I'd calculate a bunch of different variations after 2...Nh7, 2...Nd7 and 2...Ne8 while taking into account the fact that white is probably gonna play either 3.f6 or 3.Nd5 against all of them. At first glance, Nh7 looks best because it threatens to take on g5 with a tempo on the white queen and then on f6, saving the bishop, defending the knight and ruling out f6 by white for good.
I'd also look for a counter-threat I could make that doesn't give white the time to take on f6, i.e. 1...Nd4. See next paragraph.
"2) We could play Nd4 and get a nice knight outpost, as well as threatening white's queen and LS bishop at the same time. I'm concerned that this might induce a move like Qg3 though, creating an x-ray attack on our king."
The key to defending against a pawnstorm / piece sac combo is to find the weak squares created by the advance of the pawns and look for ways to exploit them.
The knight on d4 attacks f5, which means that after 2.Qg3 you could consider taking on f5, hitting the queen and protecting h6 and g7. It's probably not the best, though, as the white queen can hit the knight right back with Qh3 or Qd3.
Also important to notice is the fact that Qg3 leaves the Bc4 undefended, so after 2.Qg3 you could simply go 2...hxg5 3.hxg5 Qxc4 4.gxf6 Bxf6 -- with your bishop on f6, the g7 square is extremely secure. That, and the fact that white has to lose time to defend f5, would make me go for this line in a heartbeat, personally.
"3) We would like to play b5 then b4 and create a pawn storm against the white king, but it looks very slow. White's attack has clearly gotten there first."
I'd rule out this plan very quickly as far as I'm concerned. When you push b5, the bishop can go to b3, controlling a4 together with the Nc3. Therefore, when you push b4, your a-pawn will never get past a5.
4) exf4 is an option too, which looks nice, but what's our follow up? Is this an effective way of alleviating some of the pressure of white's attack on our king?
Yes, that would be a typical plan for this (Sicilian?) structure. Take on f4 and use the weakened e5 square with your knight. If it wasn't for the hanging bishop on g5, I'd recommend doing that.
Seems my two main thoughts were also the engine's top 2 picks: Nd4 either right away or after hxg.
The main thing I'm looking at is white's idea is BxN followed by Nd5. Black lost control of the center and white has attacking ideas.
So Nd4 isn't so much about an outpost or whatever. It's about being desperate. Developing an initiative to stop Nd5. If Nd5 happens black is just worse... and luckily for him not completely losing... probably because white's attacking ability was so bad. I mean look at all those white pawns blocking his own attack, and they're not even threatening to open a single line. Heh. Seems like a lot of wasted tempo.
But yeah, that's how I approached it. I looked at what white is threatening.
I mostly have to agree with SNUDOO here. Taking is almost surely losing.
Yeah, I thought so at first too. But if you capture the bishop and then not move the knight it's fine. If white regains his piece on f6 he'll have no real pawn breaks and black's king look pretty safe.
Nd4 looks pretty good. 1... Nd4 2. Qg3 (Qd3) Qxc4 3.Bxh6 (Rxd4 exd4) Nxf5, and I think black is holding. 1...hxg5 looks really risky and black woudd have to calculate white's myriad responses: h6, fxg5, Qg3. If this was a longer game, and there was time to calculate, you could see if you come out on top. However, this is a rapid game and I don't think the time investment is worth it. The pin on f7 is also something to consider. 1...b5 and you have lost your poison to nd4. 1...exf4 Looks like white has a nice attacking position. The simple idea is you want to keep files closed on the kingside, and counterattack on the queenside.
I agree with this guy. I like Nd4 and then taking on f5. Taking the bishop with hxg5 feels wrong. All those pawns running towards the king looks pretty scary...
I mostly have to agree with SNUDOO here. Taking is almost surely losing.
Yeah, I thought so at first too. But if you capture the bishop and then not move the knight it's fine. If white regains his piece on f6 he'll have no real pawn breaks and black's king look pretty safe.
What's the refutation to the immediate h6?
I mostly have to agree with SNUDOO here. Taking is almost surely losing.
Yeah, I thought so at first too. But if you capture the bishop and then not move the knight it's fine. If white regains his piece on f6 he'll have no real pawn breaks and black's king look pretty safe.
What's the refutation to the immediate h6?
g4 maybe? I don't know. I didn't really calculate it, it just seemed ok as long a the knight stayed on f6, and like others I liked Nd4 better.
Another line which I want to mention now that it's occurred to me is the immediate Nh7 which also looks like a safe approach.
Looks like the engine says hxg h6 Nd4. The engine is always one click away, so the exact moves don't really matter. I think the OP was more interested in the thought process.
I agree, that's why I didn't check an engine lol. I would never play that in an actual game. It looks way too dangerous, and usually people accuse me of being a maniac.
I mostly have to agree with SNUDOO here. Taking is almost surely losing.
Yeah, I thought so at first too. But if you capture the bishop and then not move the knight it's fine. If white regains his piece on f6 he'll have no real pawn breaks and black's king look pretty safe.
Yeah, at first I thought if I just let white get his piece back immediately it wouldn't be a problem, but I didn't like the h6 break.
Which rapid game?
It's comments like this that make me weep for humanity.
Why is that?
I guess because it's unfiltered. It's an animalistic impulse. After reading the first sentence you though "which game" and that's exactly what you responded with. "Which" game suggests the games are already known by some other means e.g. "my 3rd game" or "my loss in my match with ____"
What you're actually asking, if you're asking anything, is for the OP to provide the full game. A single step removed from your impulse would be to post something like "I want to see the full game."
But even then, it's entirely off topic. Having the full game doesn't change the OP's question or your would be answer.
So again, it's unthinking. It's animalistic.
And sure this is an overreaction, feel free to ignore it. I'm just saying the quiet parts out loud at the moment ![]()
This is a position I found myself in in a rapid game. Material is even and it's black to play.
So here's what's going through my mind, from the perspective of someone who is ~1800 online rapid rating:
1) The white bishop on g5 is hanging. White is purposely sacrificing this piece in order to destroy the pawn shelter in front of our king. Do we capture it or is it too risky?
2) We could play Nd4 and get a nice knight outpost, as well as threatening white's queen and LS bishop at the same time. I'm concerned that this might induce a move like Qg3 though, creating an x-ray attack on our king.
3) We would like to play b5 then b4 and create a pawn storm against the white king, but it looks very slow. White's attack has clearly gotten there first.
4) exf4 is an option too, which looks nice, but what's our follow up? Is this an effective way of alleviating some of the pressure of white's attack on our king?
What's your plan in a position like this?