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Avatar of averagepatzer

I've already analyzed this game very heavily, but with my 1700 rating, I'm bound to have made a number of mistakes and contributions to my analysis would be more than welcome.  The game itself is not very well played, as it's from back when I was around 1300 rating, but it's still worth analyzing.  Here is the game, along with my analysis. 

Avatar of Teridaxil

nice game.. pretty well played, cool analysis

Avatar of averagepatzer

well that comment took a lot of thought.. did you even look at the game?

Avatar of averagepatzer

That was definitely rude of me to say that, and I probably shouldn't have.. it just seems like 3 out of 4 posts on chess.com are very short, and are just to get a member point for posting and it's frustrating.

Avatar of averagepatzer

However, you are both correct in that it was not my place to say that, and I apologize for my rudeness.

Avatar of Teridaxil

Something a little ironic.. I actually didn't look at the game or the analysis at all, I just wanted the member points so I commented =P.  averagepatzer was sort of right lol

Avatar of gabrielconroy

This kind of stuff annoys me - it would be good if this forum actually elicited some, you know, game analysis, rather than endless pointless comments.

 

I'm not sure that f4 was such a massive blunder - certainly aggressive, though. It would have taken time to arrange, but you might have thought about 9. Qf3, followed by developing the bishop, the knight to d2, castling long and playing g4. Just an alternative plan that might just be possible due to black's own difficulties in developing.

 

I think I probably would have played 17. Rg3 Qxd3 18. cxd3.

Avatar of averagepatzer
gabrielconroy wrote:

This kind of stuff annoys me - it would be good if this forum actually elicited some, you know, game analysis, rather than endless pointless comments.

 

I'm not sure that f4 was such a massive blunder - certainly aggressive, though. It would have taken time to arrange, but you might have thought about 9. Qf3, followed by developing the bishop, the knight to d2, castling long and playing g4. Just an alternative plan that might just be possible due to black's own difficulties in developing.

 

I think I probably would have played 17. Rg3 Qxd3 18. cxd3.


thank you for the analysis :) But I don't see how white can meet 9...Bxc2 following 9.Qf3.  It looks like black trades a tempo for a pawn and is able to keep the advantage, but I'm probably missing something obvious.

Avatar of Teridaxil

you probably are.  but no one cares

Avatar of averagepatzer
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?

Avatar of Zerrogi
averagepatzer wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?


Don't mind him.  He's obviously a troll.

Avatar of Teridaxil
Zerrogi wrote:
averagepatzer wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?


Don't mind him.  He's obviously a troll.


you're a troll.  shut up

Avatar of averagepatzer
AnthonyCG wrote:1. After 7. f4: Not bad, but not good either. White can't hope for much without that f3 knight.

2.  Black can now head for an active endgame. With his kingside pawn advantage, and White's queenside advantage stymied by doubled pawns, Black is fine."

3. After 14. Bg5?: This is a good move actually.

4. Analysis of 16...c5?!: Even if Black loses a pawn, he will have excellent activity against White's weak pawns. 17.dxc5 is unacceptable as White's pawns will be simply dominoes to be knocked down. Activity trumps material here.

5. After 18. Re1: A mistake.

6. Analysis of 18... Rad8?!

7.  Analysis of 30... b6!?

 


I have many objections with your analysis, so I've quoted and numbered them to state my opinion on why I analyzed it differently.  This is in no way a personal or impersonal attack on your analysis, I'm just saying where I disagree.

1. What's so important about the f3 knight?  I don't see why white can't hope for the best without it.  The only reason that I don't like the push to f4 is because it drastically overextends white's pawns.  The knight is a strong piece, sure, but it's not all important.  The thing is that the e5 pawn is weak because it has no backup. 

A side note: after 11... c5???  12. Bb5+! Ke7 13. Ba3!  is winning for white.  Castling is vital in the position.

2. Black isn't fine.  He doesn't head for an active endgame, he almost wins on the spot due to the many weaknesses in white's position.  The d4 and e5 pawns can not hold against black's bishop and rooks.  The position is impossible for white, and I can safely evaluate it at -+.

3.  After 14... Bg5?  Black is weaker.  He had a huge advantage due to the color of his bishop and the possible undermining he could have executed, but he throws it away for no reason.

4. I don't agree with this at all.  Black has no reason to play c5, as white does not need to take on c5 and wreck his pawns.  Also, black can not apply sufficient pressure on d4 as to account for pushing the pawn to c5.  Lastly, I like 15. Rg3! Qh6 16. Qb5! with a clear advantage to white as a retort, although black may have a response I overlooked.

5. I don't think that 18. Re1 is a bad move as the idea behind it is to lift the rook via e4.  There were probably better moves to play though.

6.  18... Rad8?!  is not strong because instead of playing into black's hands with 19. Rd1? and letting black take control, I would have played 19. Re4!.  The reason that Rad8 gets a dubious mark in my book is that it forces white to make a move he planned on making.

another side note: 22. Rbb3 probably didn't deserve the ? I gave it, but I really dislike it because it strays from the winning plan of doubling the rooks on the b file.  However, your analysis of Rgb3 is incorrect, as after 23... Rd8?! White can play 23. a5! and if black errs and takes the pawn, white gets an unstoppable advantage due to his increased queenside majority when he wins the c-pawn and takes the 7th.

Another side note: I think that your analysis of 30. d5!? is interesting and I agree with you that both sides have chances in the rapid endgame to come.  However, I think white is favored as his majority is in the center while black's is on the queenside.

7.  after 31... axb6, White would take the initiative by playing d5 instead of playing into black's hand and isolating his e pawn and moving his rook to a passive location.

I apologize if I am coming across here as condescending or argumentative.  This is just my take on your analysis, and I don't know who's right or wrong.

Avatar of Teridaxil
averagepatzer wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:1. After 7. f4: Not bad, but not good either. White can't hope for much without that f3 knight.

2.  Black can now head for an active endgame. With his kingside pawn advantage, and White's queenside advantage stymied by doubled pawns, Black is fine."

3. After 14. Bg5?: This is a good move actually.

4. Analysis of 16...c5?!: Even if Black loses a pawn, he will have excellent activity against White's weak pawns. 17.dxc5 is unacceptable as White's pawns will be simply dominoes to be knocked down. Activity trumps material here.

5. After 18. Re1: A mistake.

6. Analysis of 18... Rad8?!

7.  Analysis of 30... b6!?

 


I have many objections with your analysis, so I've quoted and numbered them to state my opinion on why I analyzed it differently.  This is in no way a personal or impersonal attack on your analysis, I'm just saying where I disagree.

1. What's so important about the f3 knight?  I don't see why white can't hope for the best without it.  The only reason that I don't like the push to f4 is because it drastically overextends white's pawns.  The knight is a strong piece, sure, but it's not all important.  The thing is that the e5 pawn is weak because it has no backup. 

A side note: after 11... c5???  12. Bb5+! Ke7 13. Ba3!  is winning for white.  Castling is vital in the position.

2. Black isn't fine.  He doesn't head for an active endgame, he almost wins on the spot due to the many weaknesses in white's position.  The d4 and e5 pawns can not hold against black's bishop and rooks.  The position is impossible for white, and I can safely evaluate it at -+.

3.  After 14... Bg5?  Black is weaker.  He had a huge advantage due to the color of his bishop and the possible undermining he could have executed, but he throws it away for no reason.

4. I don't agree with this at all.  Black has no reason to play c5, as white does not need to take on c5 and wreck his pawns.  Also, black can not apply sufficient pressure on d4 as to account for pushing the pawn to c5.  Lastly, I like 15. Rg3! Qh6 16. Qb5! with a clear advantage to white as a retort, although black may have a response I overlooked.

5. I don't think that 18. Re1 is a bad move as the idea behind it is to lift the rook via e4.  There were probably better moves to play though.

6.  18... Rad8?!  is not strong because instead of playing into black's hands with 19. Rd1? and letting black take control, I would have played 19. Re4!.  The reason that Rad8 gets a dubious mark in my book is that it forces white to make a move he planned on making.

another side note: 22. Rbb3 probably didn't deserve the ? I gave it, but I really dislike it because it strays from the winning plan of doubling the rooks on the b file.  However, your analysis of Rgb3 is incorrect, as after 23... Rd8?! White can play 23. a5! and if black errs and takes the pawn, white gets an unstoppable advantage due to his increased queenside majority when he wins the c-pawn and takes the 7th.

Another side note: I think that your analysis of 30. d5!? is interesting and I agree with you that both sides have chances in the rapid endgame to come.  However, I think white is favored as his majority is in the center while black's is on the queenside.

7.  after 31... axb6, White would take the initiative by playing d5 instead of playing into black's hand and isolating his e pawn and moving his rook to a passive location.

I apologize if I am coming across here as condescending or argumentative.  This is just my take on your analysis, and I don't know who's right or wrong.


wow, way to write too much.  NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR IT!!!!

Avatar of Zerrogi
Teridaxil wrote:
Zerrogi wrote:
averagepatzer wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?


Don't mind him.  He's obviously a troll.


you're a troll.  shut up


Wow, that was the best refute I've heard all day.  You clearly aren't a troll.  Please forgive me.

Avatar of Teridaxil
Zerrogi wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:
Zerrogi wrote:
averagepatzer wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?


Don't mind him.  He's obviously a troll.


you're a troll.  shut up


Wow, that was the best refute I've heard all day.  You clearly aren't a troll.  Please forgive me.


Good one, trollasaurus rex! 

Avatar of Zerrogi
Teridaxil wrote:
Zerrogi wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:
Zerrogi wrote:
averagepatzer wrote:
Teridaxil wrote:

you probably are.  but no one cares


was that necessary to say?


Don't mind him.  He's obviously a troll.


you're a troll.  shut up


Wow, that was the best refute I've heard all day.  You clearly aren't a troll.  Please forgive me.


Good one, trollasaurus rex! 


I'm not going to spend this topic arguing with what appears to be a 9-year old with no discipline.

@averagepatzer:  Its refreshing to see someone using the Alekhine's Defense, I almost never get to see it anymore.  I'm not entirely sure why 7. f4 is considered a blunder, mostly because I like the idea of strengthening the Knight's position.  In fact, the only real problem I see with the game was Kf2 in the endgame.  Other than that, it seemed like a solid game to me.

Avatar of averagepatzer

@AnthonyCG: I have counters for almost all of what you said in the above post, but I'm not going to quote you and post them, as this could keep going back and forth forever and no one would be any the wiser.  Another thing for consideration is how long our posts are getting! Wink  but thank you very much for your contributions, and I appreciate it! 

@tonydal: you're definitely right about posting games with less analysis and posting more interesting games.  I'll try to keep that in mind in the future!  And thank you for bringing up the winning move Rxf5: that seems like quite a strong finish and a very interesting co-ordination of the bishops! 

@Zerrogi: I think the reason that Alekhine's Defence isn't used as much in tournaments is because people don't like moving around the same knight over and over again in the opening, and because it can be somewhat cramped for black and confusing to play.  I'm not taking anything away from the opening by saying this; what I mean is that people tend not to play it because it's rather tricky for black if he doesn't fully understand the opening.  It does lead to quite interesting positions though!

To the three of you:  I appreciated all of your feedback, and thanks for posting!