We need more amateurs to post their annotated games.

Yes. But after White got such a big advantage, almost any strategy would have worked for him Black should have resigned, that's what was logocal, apart from that all possible continuations are more or less pointless

You understood me wrong, this is what I meant

'White had worse development, worse space control, weaker pawn structure, had posed no threats to Black so far, and, quite the contrary, Black was preparing an attack on his kingside.' (quoting you) So according to you white is worse in the  'four important things in the opening' , but the position is still equal ? (isn't that a contradiction?)

Does this have any relevance whatsoever to the position's evaluation?

Yes. As i pointed out. 'In this position, definately because of the very unusual opening, the engine output is pure mathematics.' So it's not a position the computer is familiar with, so the output is just mathematics. (If he was familiar with the opening, the output can be based on databases of played games.) The beginning of the opening (that's why I said 4 or 5 or something) is played more often, so can be based on game databases. The position at move 13 not.

Also, could you give an example of an opening line where White gets not more than +0,10 advantage? Or an opening that's "immediately better for Black"?

Examples of openings in which white doesn't get a big advantage and are not spoiled: QGD (max +0.10), Semi slav (max +0.06), Vienna Game, Ruy Lopez (+0.14), Italian game(0.00),...

An opening in which black is better according the computer: e.g. Bird's opening.

And I checked the initial position before, and white was better all the time, at a point even +0.65 or something (see one of the comments above).

well I think that engine's are useful until some point, it reaches the tip where it stops being useful, and you won't develop. As one famous IM said, "Chess is a game full of human spirit and emotion" , with you talking white have slight lead (+0,2 to 0,6), for me, it doesn't mean anything, if you DID NOT know how to see the imbalances, and made correct plans.

As we amateurs do not really play like masters, all of us had a lot to learn, and instead of typing away on things like this, why not you also contribute to this thread, and keep posting games you played, win or lost.

If I am not right, please, correct me.

Thank you.

Just one of my games played over 3 days/move. I find that my games are always full of errors, but still, if it interests anyone

I should note that my submition is just my effort against the French defense.  I'm generally a bit reluctant to submit my games as they seem to involve clear errors by either party (like they give away a knight to some cheap tactic etc). But I'd welcome comments as I really dont enjoy playing against the old French

I feel like the real mistake the guy made here was on move 11 where he plays B6.   I mean, such a horrible waste of time in such a sharp opening must be a mess. Two pawns move - suspect.  Nf6 on move 10 looked more sensible

Sorry, I can't comprehend much of the upper, neither semantically nor syntactically. Neither I think it has something to do with the, I hope, clear and straightforward questions I asked you in my last post.

*****

That's right - both about computer evaluation and about the purpose of this topic. However, as there are different opinions, there will inevitably be disagreement, be it fewer or larger, about posted games. I also believe it will be beneficial to comment on chess instead, but I also believe that we shouldn't neglect other people's opinions that differ from our own ones, especially if the person who expressed them is certain about their truthfulness and determined to refute our own perception. Let's give everyone a chance to explain his own point of view, be it truthful or not.

So, let's discuss a position from a game that has been posted here, I believe it will be better for everyone:

What do you think of this position, what is your assessment of each side's strengths, weaknesses, chances and possible game plans, and what is your overall evaluation of this position and estimation of the game outcome?

Here's what I think: this position is equal. White has a weaker pawn strucutre, and his kingside is under attack by Black that he has to have in mind. On the other hand, White has no obvious middlegame plan, because of the lack of pawn structure or other positional weaknesses in Black's lineup to exploit, and the lack of space, important lines' and squares' control, development, material, king safety or whatsoever other advantage that White should have seeked to, but failed to, create in the opening. That's why I think this position is equal, I believe White could have played more actively in the opening to avoid that, and I think Black should be content with doing so well so early in the game, with the black pieces, against an opponent that is over 700 rating points higer than him.

Please, if you don't think so, be so gentle to share your opinion so that I will no longer be misguided. If you, on the other hand, agree with me, please also say that so I won't unnecessarily wonder what's so not obvious in this position to elude me.

I would initially say that black has a small advantage on this position,because his bishops are aiming at white's kingside.However,the fact that the light square bishop could be soon exchanged makes me say that the position is equal or almost at this point.Both players have good pawn structures(2 pawn islands,no doubled pawns),equal material,safe kings.The position should lead to a draw if played correctly by both players.

It's good to see different thought on games and positions.This helps all of us to improve.

Nice game. Here's what is White's advantage - in being able to form a favorable pawn structure, get space control, develop well, push his pawns in a favorable way, and so on, while not allowing Black to easily equalize. I think you played well and due to your active play you managed to win. Black made some mistakes to make it easier for you, but you had a good position after the opening, and you would have won one way or another.

About 3.Nd2: have you thought about playing 3.Bd3 instead? I think it could have been good to prepare f4-f5. There's an option for Black to play 3...dxe4 4.Bxe4 Nf6, but it can be met with 5.Bg5, 5.f3 (to solidify the center in case Black exchanges on e4) or 5.Qd3.

3...Nf6 doesn't look very good for Black, as after 4.e5 Black is either two tempi behind or has to play 4...Nd7, where his knight will be inactive due to White's control over c5 and e5. I think 3...Ne6 with the idea of ...c5 and ...Nec6 could have been better.

6...b6 is strange for Black, it doesn't seem to have any purpose. Black can recapture on c5 with a piece, so it's not a defensive move; neither it easens Black's queen bishop's development as it needn't be played to neither b7 or a6.

Black played a rather bad middlegame. He had no preparation whatsoever for pushing on the queenside. He also made some tactical mistakes that allowed you to gain material and get a good position. But that was largely due to your good center control, kingside space control and active pieces, and to that you had a plan and performed it well.

As a whole, I think Black didn't manage to achieve one of the most important possible advantages of the French defense and all Caro-Slav formations to other openings - solidity. Instead, he went for non-justified and unprepared queenside activity attempts, disorganized, didn't develop or didn't use well his pieces, and failed to meet your kingside push well. Congratulations to you for, quite the contrary, having a good plan and playing it out well!

On move 46 does black just play pawn into D6 doesnt that just win?

Sorry, I can't comprehend much of the upper, neither semantically nor syntactically. Neither I think it has something to do with the, I hope, clear and straightforward questions I asked you in my last post.

Glex, are you kidding me? My sister is 15 years old, she knows almost nothing about chess and english is not her first language. I let her read it and guess what?  She understands it. Or you did no effort at all, or you don't want to reply because i prove you wrong.

Hmm I'm not sure Can you insert a table with that variation?

Yep, but my brother says I'm right, therefore there's no doubt that you are both wrong. Anything to say?

Maybe you understand this better.

You understood me wrong. This is what I meant.

'White had worse development, worse space control, weaker pawn structure, had posed no threats to Black so far, and, quite the contrary, Black was preparing an attack on his kingside.' (quoting you) Conclusion: according to you white is worse in the  'four important things in the opening' , but the position is still equal according to you ? (isn't that a contradiction?)

Also, this is move 13, not move 4 or 5 or something..

Question: Does this have any relevance whatsoever to the position's evaluation?

Answer: Yes. As i pointed out. 'In this position, definately because of the very unusual opening, the engine output is pure mathematics.' So it's not a position the computer is familiar with, so the output is just mathematics. (If he was familiar with the opening, the engine output can be based on databases of played games.) The beginning of the opening (that's why I said move 4 or 5 or something) is played more often, so càn be based on game databases. The position at move 13 can not.

Question: Also, could you give an example of an opening line where White gets not more than +0,10 advantage? Or an opening that's "immediately better for Black"?

Answer:

1)Examples of openings in which white doesn't get a big advantage and are not spoiled: QGD (max +0.10), Semi slav (max +0.06), Vienna Game, Ruy Lopez (+0.14), Italian game(0.00),...

2) An opening in which black is better according the computer: e.g. Bird's opening.

Question: analyse the opening with the computer, and check the output

And I checked the initial position before, and white was better all the time, at a point even +0.70 (see one of the comments above).

If you didn't understand what my questions were, here they are, as in a poll:

1. Rybka's evaluation of a chess initial position is ......(place for the answer).

2. The number of the current move affects the evaluation of the position because...... and it affects it by.......

3. The .......... opening is a good opening that is played in serious games without the purpose of wasting White's first move advantage, and after the ........ line the evaluation of the position is .......

4. At a position with the following FEN: "rn3rk1/pppq1ppp/3bb3/8/3N4/1P2B2P/P1P1BPP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 13", White stands ....... in comparison with Black, because .......

http://www.google.be/imgres?q=can%27t+tell+if+trolling+or+just+stupid&um=1&hl=nl&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=qrt9Gd8pf6F2KM:&imgrefurl=http://www.1up.com/news/ea-limiting-copies-the-old-republic-launch-digitally-retail&docid=A5oJBXp2hej0AM&imgurl=http://solutionproblem.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/cant-tell-if-trolling.jpg&w=400&h=300&ei=oCkfT6iYDoaAOrvR1J0O&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=184&vpy=148&dur=11794&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=165&ty=148&sig=111808042708766480423&page=1&tbnh=132&tbnw=176&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

As I posted my reply, I saw you had got ahead of me with pointing out some of your argumentation. Thank you for that, I believe we're a step, be it a smaller or a bigger one, closer to mutual understanding that will, I hope, be good for everyone that's tracking this thread.

Here are explanations on my part:

About the "four principles": I pointed them out as a counter-argument to a possible understanding that an opening can be judged according to some program's evaluation rather than according to achieving those principles. According to me, in the text position White has a weaker pawn structure than Black, because he has comitted some of his pawns to advance, creating in this way a dark square weakness on his kingside and an opportunity for Black to attack his h or g pawn; therefore White's king safety is not as good as Black's too, in addition to White's kingside being targeted by Black pieces.

About the move number: All that I think that matters except for whose turn it is, whether castling and en-passant options are available, and whether a draw by repetition or 40-move rule is available is included in the pawns' and pieces' placement on the board and is by no means connected with the number of the current move, save for some documentational, presentational or other similar needs. That's why I think the number of the move doesn't affect the positional evaluation.

About openings: I strongly believe that any opening that gives White less than ~+0,2-+0,5 advantage is to be carefully considered before playing, and not to be played unless it gives White some compensation that can be used in a sensible way. That's why I think White can choose such an opening and play it, and getting a result as low as +0,10 and an equal position (and which is more important - one with no obvious middlegame plan) early in the opening can be avoided by him. That's why I think White could have done much better.

(P.S. As I submitted my current post, I saw your last one, much in the spirit of your  pre-previous one(s). Please feel free to disregard the upper part of my current post, as I was obviously mistaken while I was writing it. Now I feel there's no progress whatsoever, much to my disappointment, and to everyone else's I believe. But I have not expected it to be otherwise.)

I never thought that my games is used so many times, I feel honored ;)

Put another game in, just yesterday :

well do not ask me why I draw the game, I RAN OUT OF TIME, SO THE COM SAYS IT IS DRAWN. C&F are appreciated!

Looks like a good game :-)  Black seemed very passive though.  I'm not sure about your move 8.D4 because it seems to be a little awkward after maybe NC6? taking advantage of the pin.  Looks like it could be annoying, but black really doesn't do very much all game...

On move 28. you say you were thinking of swapping the rook for a knight and pawn yes?  I think you were wise not to, I dont see your follow up after that.  None of your pieces can be easily brought into the game. Good call I think!

THe game looks drawish untill move 37. RD8 Is black under time pressure? Could they have slipped ? This move seems mad, why not stick it on the open file? Surly after RE8 it would just be a slight uneventfull draw?

I don't understand why Black chose to play the Scandinavian instead of a Caro-Kann. He made no use of his queen until he exchanged it, and bringing it out so early without using it was simply a waste of tempi. That's why you had enough time to organize your kingside play, and to eventually win. Well played.