what the #$%^was he playing and how did he win?

Sort:
Somebodysson
Yaroslavl wrote:

7.e5?! Is a premature attempt at a pawn break. The reason it is premature is because Black not indicated with some additional moves how he will be defending against your attack in the center. In other words, you pawn break with 7.e5?! has to be prepared. Think of it as a process of suffocating your opponent's position made possible by your advantage in space. When you eventually play the pawn break in the center, any response your opponent chooses will lead to advantage(s) for White. A better move than 7.e5?! Is 7.Bd3 followed by Qd2 and eventually connecting your Rs with 0-0 or 0-0-0.

Yaroslavl, I'd like to understand what you wrote here, but I don't understand it, and central pawn breaks is another area where I am completely mystified. You write something here that I believe is key for me to understand, but I don't. 

When you say my pawn break 'has to be prepared' and 'it is premature because my opponent hasn't indicated how he will defend against it' do you mean have to prepare it, or I have to wait to see what my opponent does to defend his central pawns? If I have to prepare it how might I have done that?

Are you stating a general theory of pawn breaks by writing that before I make the pawn break I have to see how my opponent has prepared to answer it, and thus that will tell me which pawn break to make, where to make the pawn break?

thanks man. 

Yaroslavl

Yaroslavl, I'd like to understand what you wrote here, but I don't understand it, and central pawn breaks is another area where I am completely mystified. You write something here that I believe is key for me to understand, but I don't. 

When you say my pawn break 'has to be prepared' and 'it is premature because my opponent hasn't indicated how he will defend against it' do you mean I have to prepare it, or I have to wait to see what my opponent does to defend his central pawns? If I have to prepare it how might I have done that?

Are you stating a general theory of pawn breaks by writing that before I make the pawn break I have to see how my opponent has prepared to answer it, and thus that will tell me which pawn break to make, where to make the pawn break?

______________________________________________________________________________

Will post respond later. Very busy with project at work.

Somebodysson
TheR-tist wrote:

You could have anticipated for that g4 maybe a couple moves earlier, and diverted to a pawn break and start making your pieces come to life.

hehe, its a sore spot for me Wink I often fail to anticipate pawn thrusts.  Thanks for the input. The more I see it/hear it/read it, eventually it will sink in!

Somebodysson
Yaroslavl wrote:

______________________________________________________________________________

Will post respond later. Very busy with project at work.

thanks. do your work, and I look forward to your post later whenever you can, no rush, but eager to learn. 

Yaroslavl

Before I answer your 2 complex questions, one regarding preparing and premature pawn breaks. And, two the( c, d, e vs. d, e, f head pawn center trio.) I would like to cover candidate moves and how to select from competing candidate moves in a position you are analyzing when considering your next move. If you will recall I posted the following:

"Better than 11.f4?! is 11.cxd5 because if 11...exd5 the center remains blocked which maintains your space advantage, and you have a half-free protecteda passer pawn at e5. In addition Black's B at b7 is blocked by his own pawn at d5. White also has a half open c-file which later may be exploited. If 11...Bxd5 12.Nxd5 exd5, the center remains blocked maintaining your space advantage, also you have now gained the minor exchange(N for B), you have the additional advantage of the powerful weapons of the 2Bs. Finally, you have the half-open c- file which you may exploit later. If 11...Bxd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5?? 13.Be4 you have skewered Black's Q and R gaining material with no compensation for Black not even compensation in the form of counterplay."

I am sure that you have heard the advice, 'when you find a good move, look for another one that might be better before making a move.

I had Houdini analyzing your game from the position with White to move after Black's 10...g5. It chose and analyzed 3 candidate moves for White (+4.01 11.cxd5, +3.49 11.f4', and +3.30 11.Qh5. I will write in my next post which move Houdini chose to make and the notation thru move 21.

Somebodysson

Yaroslavl, I remember you writing that, I read your comments very carefully, and it stuck. I thank you for your sticking with this thread, and I look forward to your further post. 

Yaroslavl

Somebodysson wrote:

Yaroslavl wrote:

7.e5?! Is a premature attempt at a pawn break. The reason it is premature is because Black not indicated with some additional moves how he will be defending against your attack in the center. In other words, you pawn break with 7.e5?! has to be prepared. Think of it as a process of suffocating your opponent's position made possible by your advantage in space. When you eventually play the pawn break in the center, any response your opponent chooses will lead to advantage(s) for White. A better move than 7.e5?! Is 7.Bd3 followed by Qd2 and eventually connecting your Rs with 0-0 or 0-0-0.

Yaroslavl, I'd like to understand what you wrote here, but I don't understand it, and central pawn breaks is another area where I am completely mystified. You write something here that I believe is key for me to understand, but I don't. 

When you say my pawn break 'has to be prepared' and 'it is premature because my opponent hasn't indicated how he will defend against it' do you mean I have to prepare it, or I have to wait to see what my opponent does to defend his central pawns? If I have to prepare it how might I have done that?

Are you stating a general theory of pawn breaks by writing that before I make the pawn break I have to see how my opponent has prepared to answer it, and thus that will tell me which pawn break to make, where to make the pawn break?

thanks man.

________________________________________________________________________________

The simple answer to your questilon is to count the number of your and your opponent's pawns and pieces that are attacking each of the central squares (d4,d5, e4, e5). Whatever of those 4 squares that you have at least one more pawn or piece attacking it than your opponent, that is a potentially good square to initiate a pawn break.

However, there is a lot more to it than that. You have to be aware of any tactical tricks that will trump your superior force on that square. You have to be aware that the pawn break is the first move in the middle game and your plan of attack initiated by the pawn break you must have worked out in your mind. Not just the thematic outline of the plan but also detailed variations after your opponent's most likely responses and finally both yours and your opponents tactical shots that will surface in certain variations, these include but are not limited to pepetual check, stalemate and 3-fold repetitions.

All of these details regarding the plan(s) of attack you will learn after playing and studying openings which will become part of your opening repertoire. An opening repertoire is most effective when your repertoire consists of 3 openings with White and 3 openings with Black.

2mooroo
philidor_position wrote:

He won because you hung 3 pawns and he took them. It's a lame opening by black. There was no mysteriously effective strategy or anything involved with the win. Just grabbing hanging material.

Well said. 

TheGreatOogieBoogie

But what determines attack and defense?  We need to calculate to determine if they are sound, but how do we know they're sound in the first place?  Because they conform to positional principles.  If one calculates that after the best forcing variation that the defender has a superior endgame then one should abandon the attack and find something else to do.  Remember, strategy is what you do when there's nothing to do, so playing strategically sound moves is recommended for any level.  Just blunder check and analyze all forcing variations to ensure a move is safe. 

Somebodysson
Yaroslavl wrote:

All of these details regarding the plan(s) of attack you will learn after playing and studying openings which will become part of your opening repertoire. An opening repertoire is most effective when your repertoire consists of 3 openings with White and 3 openings with Black.

thank you Yaroslavl. Let me ask you an important question, while I still have you here. They say that someone of my level shouldn't study openings. Yet what you write makes tons of sense, and I don't understand it completely. So I want to ask a question to understand more fully.

By 'a repertoire' do you mean I should have three openings as white NO MATTER what Black plays. Do you mean I should have three openings as white that I will employ for any of a specific set of black opening moves?

The reason I ask is 1. I don't know what 'choosing a repertoire' means, and 2. they tell me that at my level I shouldn't work on openings, yet what you say makes tons of sense, and IF I can choose three openings that I can employ for any of a particular set of Black opening moves, maybe it makes sense for me to do a little bit of opening preparation, choose it, work it, and go back to studying tactics (which I'm doing tons of, in the last three days I've gone from 1000-1200 on the tactics trainer and haven't experienced the puzzles getting appreciably more difficult, so 1. I doubt that tactics trainer rating means much and 2. I figure the difference between 1000 and 1200 isn't much, but it does mean SOMETHING that I've mastered, apparently, the 1000 and 1100 level puzzles).

To put it another way, if I can choose three openings as white, (amd three as black) and learn opening traps and themes in THOSE THREE openings only, and then go back to improving my tactical vision and basic endgames, and basics of very elementary strategy, then maybe I'll give it a go.

On another, but related note, any thoughts what white opening that is not too trappy or complicated I might have employed in this game, and which I might study for use in the immediate future?

Thanks sooooo much. Alejandro. 

Yaroslavl

Somebodysson wrote:

Yaroslavl wrote:

All of these details regarding the plan(s) of attack you will learn after playing and studying openings which will become part of your opening repertoire. An opening repertoire is most effective when your repertoire consists of 3 openings with White and 3 openings with Black.

thank you Yaroslavl. Let me ask you an important question, while I still have you here. They say that someone of my level shouldn't study openings. Yet what you write makes tons of sense, and I don't understand it completely. So I want to ask a question to understand more fully.

By 'a repertoire' do you mean I should have three openings as white NO MATTER what Black plays. Do you mean I should have three openings as white that I will employ for any of a specific set of black opening moves?

The reason I ask is 1. I don't know what 'choosing a repertoire' means, and 2. they tell me that at my level I shouldn't work on openings, yet what you say makes tons of sense, and IF I can choose three openings that I can employ for any of a particular set of Black opening moves, maybe it makes sense for me to do a little bit of opening preparation, choose it, work it, and go back to studying tactics (which I'm doing tons of, in the last three days I've gone from 1000-1200 on the tactics trainer and haven't experienced the puzzles getting appreciably more difficult, so 1. I doubt that tactics trainer rating means much and 2. I figure the difference between 1000 and 1200 isn't much, but it does mean SOMETHING that I've mastered, apparently, the 1000 and 1100 level puzzles).

To put it another way, if I can choose three openings as white, (amd three as black) and learn opening traps and themes in THOSE THREE openings only, and then go back to improving my tactical vision and basic endgames, and basics of very elementary strategy, then maybe I'll give it a go.

On another, but related note, any thoughts what white opening that is not too trappy or complicated I might have employed in this game, and which I might study for use in the immediate future?

Thanks sooooo much. Alejandro. 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

This is an example of my response when I get questions about technique. I can simplify and shortcut some aspects of the training program you will have to practice for about 3 years

Evinadabef wrote:

There's a friend of mine who plays top notch chess. I notice that he ends up with the 2 bishops in most of his games. He beats many players that technique. Can someone explain this please. Is that a good technique?

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, it is a good technique, but not simplistic.

Achieving the exchange of your Ns for your opponent's Bs is called the Minor Exchange. However, there are many exceptions to this technique. You must first acquire 5 visualization pattern memory banks.

Approaching the explanation of these exceptions in general terms from the endgame forward is usually the best method, proceeding from the simple case to the more complicated case. With that in mind first it necessary to learn the

1. Mating Net visualization pattern memory bank. You must be able to force mate your opponent's lone K with your K+2Bs. You must practice this until you can do it in your sleep. Only then will it become a technique for you. At that point it will become your mating net visualization pattern memory bank technique.

2. Endgame visualization pattern is your next task. By practicing and studying endgame books involving pawns involving B vs. N endgames. You must practice these until you can do them in your sleep. In the process you will discover the following elements:

a. Bs can get from one side of the board to the other in one move. Ns take several moves to get from one side of the board to the other. This is a time advantage to the B. As you know there are 3 advantages in chess (time, space, and material).

b. Open pawn structures favor the Bs. Closed pawn structures favor the Ns

c. Positions with open pawn structures and pawns on both sides of the board favor the Bs

*Exception: if the N can achieve a centralized post in the center of the board defended by a pawn and cannot be driven for that post by an enemy pawn the position is usually a draw.

d. Positions where the pawn structure is closed and cannot be opened without disadvantage favor the Ns

e. Positions where the pawns are all on one side of the board are usually drawn.

A very important fact to keep in mind is that, one, 2Bs together with any other piece are a mating force, two 2Bs are very effective at hemming in enemy pawns, 3 a B can trap a N on the edge of the board, a N cannot trap a B in the same manner.

If you would like to know more please let me know

______________________________________________________________________________________

As I wrote above, there are 5 visualization pattern memory banks that you must acquire over those 3 years. The description above covers: a.one part (K+2Bs vs.K) of the complete Mating net visualization pattern which includes (K+R v K, K+Q v K, K+B+N v K and K+2Bs v K), the Endgame visualization pattern (K+p(s) v K, K+R+p(s) v K+R+p(s), K+B+p(s) v K+N+p(s), etc.), the opening and middlegame visualization pattern.The 5 visualization pattern memory banks are: (THIS IS WHERE I LOSE MOST PLAYERS BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THE HARD WORK INVOLVED OVER A PERIOD OF SEVERAL YEARS)

1.Tactics visualization pattern memory bank

2.Mating Net visualization pattern memory bank

3.Endgame visualization pattern memory bank

4.Opening visualization pattern memory bank

5.Middle Game visualization pattern bank

2mooroo

woah wall of text.

Lol why do you add "pattern memory bank" to the end of everything?

Opening, middlegame, endgame, and tactics (because mating nets are tactics that mate).  Yes, I think we can all agree if you master all those then you're the world's next super-GM.

Somebodysson:
If you enjoy reading opening theory then read it.  If you enjoy endgame study then study away.  The advice often given is simply that, at your level, opening theory won't help you win games.  If you want to win games you have to stop dropping pawns!  It's really that simple.  You have to start with a firm grasp of the basics. 

And one more thing about openings: learning the ideas behind them is WAY more useful than memorizing moves.  With memorizing moves you may easily forget them, or your opponent may play something you didn't know about, or you play 20 moves out of the book (not likely to happen unless you're at a master level) and then suddenly you realize you have no idea what your plans are now that the opening is over.  I think it would help you to understand opening IDEAS.  The game you posted here had a dead simple opening.  Black made a bunch of pointless pawn moves and you built an incredibly strong center.  Had you not blundered pieces left and right it would have been an easy win. 



Yaroslavl

FromMuToYou wrote:

woah wall of text.Lol why do you add "pattern memory bank" to the end of everything?Opening, middlegame, endgame, and tactics (because mating nets are tactics that mate).  Yes, I think we can all agree if you master all those then you're the world's next super-GM.Somebodysson:If you enjoy reading opening theory then read it.  If you enjoy endgame study then study away.  The advice often given is simply that, at your level, opening theory won't help you win games.  If you want to win games you have to stop dropping pawns!  It's really that simple.  You have to start with a firm grasp of the basics.  And one more thing about openings: learning the ideas behind them is WAY more useful than memorizing moves.  With memorizing moves you may easily forget them, or your opponent may play something you didn't know about, or you play 20 moves out of the book (not likely to happen unless you're at a master level) and then suddenly you realize you have no idea what your plans are now that the opening is over.  I think it would help you to understand opening IDEAS.  The game you posted here had a dead simple opening.  Black made a bunch of pointless pawn moves and you built an incredibly strong center.  Had you not blundered pieces left and right it would have been an easy win. 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

As I write all in caps this is where you lose a lot of people because of the hard work involved.

To clarify the Opening visualization pattern memory bank includes understanding why the moves are made.

You write that, "...(because mating nets are tactics that mate..."). No, a mating net may or may not involve tactics. Basic endgame mating techniques are an irrefutable series of moves, not involving any tactics, that lead to mate in basically the same way every time depending on how the lone K chooses to defend, but the end result is mate by force.

Somebodysson

umm. I don't have any problem with the 'wall of text'. None at all. I find the content helpful. And, Yaroslavl, I can see how some people may 'get lost' when they see the hard work involved, but I'd rather spend the next three years doing hard work that pays off, rather than work that doesn't pay off. I spent a year playing chess without thinking, and I got really good at playing chess without thinking, and hoping I would win, and I only lost to lower and lower ranked games. So I've stopped that 'training strategy' Wink and I'm seriously looking for another one. I have just acquired Averbakh's essentials of middlegame and endgame, and plan to work them. I have been doing tactics on the tactics trainer, and yes, I know its not much at all, but in the last two weeks I've gone up from 1000-1200 on the tactics trainer, and I realize the tactical puzzles at this level are very simple, but I have gotten undeniably better at them.

Yaroslavl, I'm still a bit puzzled about choosing a repertoire. I don't know anything about studying openings, as I have never studied one. But I would like to choosea limited openings repertoire for the next three years or so, and use that as the springboard for my continued development in endings, middlgames, mating nets and tactics.

If you wish to recommend an opening repertoire I can assure you I will take your recommendation seriously, and I will report on my progress with it.

Does committing to a repertoire as white mean I will use one of my three openings no matter what Blacks does, using the opening appropriate to Black's response/committing to a repertoire as Black mean I will use one of those three defenses appropriate to white's opening no matter what white does?

Somebodysson
FromMuToYou wrote:And one more thing about openings: learning the ideas behind them is WAY more useful than memorizing moves.  With memorizing moves you may easily forget them, or your opponent may play something you didn't know about, or you play 20 moves out of the book (not likely to happen unless you're at a master level) and then suddenly you realize you have no idea what your plans are now that the opening is over.  I think it would help you to understand opening IDEAS.  The game you posted here had a dead simple opening.  Black made a bunch of pointless pawn moves and you built an incredibly strong center.  Had you not blundered pieces left and right it would have been an easy win.  



frommutoyou: I have seen this written before, and I don't know how to make sense of it. I don't think its realistic for me to learn the ideas behind many white openings/many black defenses. I think it makes more sense to learn ideas for a few openings for white and Black, as Yaroslavl suggests. 

Do you want to give a recommendation for three white and three black openings for a 1000 player like myself, who has been playing for a year and half with no thought at all of training in any disciplined fashion, and wondered why he seemed to be getting worse and worse, and now wants to focus his time on a more rational training strategy. thanks. 

2mooroo
Yaroslavl wrote:
As I write all in caps this is where you lose a lot of people because of the hard work involved.

To clarify the Opening visualization pattern memory bank includes understanding why the moves are made.

Listen hotshot, fancy terms like "opening visualization pattern memory bank" don't impress me.  Does understanding openings require memorizing patterns?  Yes, it does.  But you are making something which should be relatively simple into something complicated.  In fact just in skimming your posts you seem to constantly make simple things sound daunting and terrifyingly hard. 

I've done well against high ranked tournament players and FIDE masters OTB and generally play a pretty decent game of chess and I'm not even sure if I could checkmate with a knight and bishop if I needed to for the win.  I'm not a fan of your rigid outline of techniques shrouded in buzzwords that "[one] must acquire".  You reek of pseudo-intellectualism.

2mooroo
Somebodysson wrote:
I don't think its realistic for me to learn the ideas behind many white openings/many black defenses.
Nah, just one at a time.  Give me an opening you're interested in and I'll explain the goals of each side.  In a symmetrical opening the ideas for each side are usually pretty similar but some openings are very dynamic meaning each side is striving to meet very different objectives.

Do you want to give a recommendation for three white and three black openings..
Just pick an opening that makes sense to you.  If none of them make sense to you then pick one that interests you and I'll explain that one.

Yaroslavl

Somebodysson wrote:

umm. I don't have any problem with the 'wall of text'. None at all. I find the content helpful. And, Yaroslavl, I can see how some people may 'get lost' when they see the hard work involved, but I'd rather spend the next three years doing hard work that pays off, rather than work that doesn't pay off. I spent a year playing chess without thining, and I got really good at playing chess without thinking, and hoping I would win, and I only lost to lower and lower ranked games. So I've stopped that 'training strategy'  and I'm seriously looking for another one. I have just acquired Averbakh's essentials of middlegame and endgame, and plan to work them. I have been doing tactics on the tactics trainer, and yes, I know its not much at all, but in the last two weeks I've gone up from 1000-1200 on the tactics trainer, and I realize the tactical puzzles at this level are very simple, but I have gotten undeniably better at them.

Yaroslavl, I'm still a bit puzzled about choosing a repertoire. I don't know anything about studying openings, as I have never studied one. But I would like to choosea limited openings repertoire for the next three years or so, and use that as the springboard for my continued development in endings, middlgames, mating nets and tactics.

If you wish to recommend an opening repertoire I can assure you I will take your recommendation seriously, and I will report on my progress with it.

Does committing to a repertoire as white mean I will use one of my three openings no matter what Blacks does, using the opening appropriate to Black's response/committing to a repertoire as Black mean I will use one of those three defenses appropriate to white's opening no matter what white does?

_________________________________________________________________

As White I suggest: 1.The London System 2.The Colle System

As Black I suggest: 1. in response to 1.e4 the Sicilian Dragon, 2. In response to 1.d4 Lasker's Defense

As you mature as a chess player your opening repertoire will change

In chess there is something known as transpositions. Your opponent by making a certain move in certain position will change the opening you were in to another that favors the color he is playing. At your level against you opponents this is not a concern. Even if by chance opponent made a move that transposes I doubt he would even be aware of it.

Yury Averbak's Endgame Series is excellent.

Make a check list that you must commit to memory, but carry it around with you any way.

The check list needs to start with:

1.What is my opponent threat? What is the threat?

2.Pieces can move and CAPTURE forwards and BACKWARDS, be very careful

3.Pawns can only move forward. Pawn moves alter the position permanently. Be very careful

aand so on

Somebodysson
FromMuToYou wrote:
Yaroslavl wrote:
As I write all in caps this is where you lose a lot of people because of the hard work involved.

To clarify the Opening visualization pattern memory bank includes understanding why the moves are made.

Listen hotshot, fancy terms like "opening visualization pattern memory bank" don't impress me.  Does understanding openings require memorizing patterns?  Yes, it does.  But you are making something which should be relatively simple into something complicated.  In fact just in skimming your posts you seem to constantly make simple things sound daunting and terrifyingly hard. 

I've done well against high ranked tournament players and FIDE masters OTB and generally play a pretty decent game of chess and I'm not even sure if I could checkmate with a knight and bishop if I needed to for the win.  I'm not a fan of your rigid outline of techniques shrouded in buzzwords that "[one] must acquire".  You reek of pseudo-intellectualism.

different people express themselves differently. I'm less interested in the way they express themselves, and more interested in the content, as long as people are respectful. I'm interested in Yaroslavl's content, and frommutyou's content. they are quite different. Yaroslavl is outlining with borad strokes a training plan over a period of years. Frommutoyou is talking about learning openings ideas.

I anm interested in the multi-year plan Yaroslavl references, because I am currently working at putting together just such a thing. I stayed up till five AM a week ago, putting together a chess curriculum for myself, without much understanding what that involved. 

I included in the curriculum endings, middlegames, tactics, checkmate patterns, and beginner positional/strategic ideas. 

However, I did not put into the curriculum anything about openings, because I had no idea how to include openings in a beginner curriculum. I 'know' in theory the basic principles of openings, i.e. knights before bishops, centre control, castle, knight on the rim, rooks facing rooks. but I have no idea about any particular openings, nor any idea about how to choose a limited repertoire for my first few years.

Also, more generally, (and this is for Yaroslvl and for Frommutoyou) I still don't understand what it means to choose a repertoire. Does it mean, say I choose, for 1. e4 I choose a giuco piano. What do I do if Balck answers 1. e4 with 1...c5. Do I need a repertoire opening to answer Balcks' sicilian? That's a serious question that I don't know how to answer.

for e.g.

Let's say If I start choosing my 3 white repertoire openings

a) 1. e4  (if 1...e5) 2.Nf3  (if 2...Nc6) 3. Bc4   .    

b) 1. e4  (if 1...c5) 2. Nf3   (if 2...d6)  3. c3   now I"m stumped. Do I need to have memorized, or planned, or understood, in advance, a diferent reply to 3...Nf6, 3...Nc6, 3...g6, 3...e6, 3...e5? Does having a repertoire of three openings involve having just three openings that I will follow for any black move orders.

I think what I'm getting it is the following. What is the difference between an "openings repertoire", and an "opening system"?

I think when people write develop an openings repertoire, I understand 'choose an opening system'. I'm quite sure I'm mistaken, but I don't understand how to chosse a repertoire. 

You seem, my opponent in the posted game in the first post...I think he was employing an opening system. He told me so after the game. And he told me he employed that exact same opening as white and as black.

In other words, as someone wrote earlier, he was making misndless pawn moves. He had adopted a 'system', and he midnlessly followed that system. 

I don't want to do that. And I plan on kicking his butt next time I play him. 

I want to beconme a real chess player.

I plan to study tactics, endgames for beginners, checkmate patterns, and I plan to drill those until I can do them in my sleep. No fooling. Also,  basics of beginner strategy. Those are non negotiable. 

I still want some guidance about openings, how to choose a beginner's openings repertoire, and what that even means. 

Yaroslavl
[COMMENT DELETED]