A TALLY OF DATABASE-USERS & NON-USERS

MainStreet wrote: ... By the way, Artfizz and I are now playing a chess game where I maintained my being a Non-User, while Art in this game voluntarily shifted to the side of a Non-User. :)

And, MainStreet, being the gentleman that he is, will no doubt insist on a return match in which we are both Users.  ::))

I hope you offer some training in being a user prior to that game. It would hardly be fair to expect him to know what to do with all this stuff without some training whereas it seems reasonable that you should already know how to use your brain!

artfizz wrote:

MainStreet wrote: ... By the way, Artfizz and I are now playing a chess game where I maintained my being a Non-User, while Art in this game voluntarily shifted to the side of a Non-User. :)

And, MainStreet, being the gentleman that he is, will no doubt insist on a return match in which we are both Users.  ::))

Art, you challenged me to a game where you chose to play as a Non-User. It was your choice. If ever you'll want to have a return match, I'm sure you'll be a gentleman, too, to accept my own choice - which will surely be to play as a Non-User. :))

MainStreet wrote:

artfizz wrote:

MainStreet wrote: ... By the way, Artfizz and I are now playing a chess game where I maintained my being a Non-User, while Art in this game voluntarily shifted to the side of a Non-User. :)

And, MainStreet, being the gentleman that he is, will no doubt insist on a return match in which we are both Users.  ::))

Art, you challenged me to a game where you chose to play as a Non-User. It was your choice. If ever you'll want to have a return match, I'm sure you'll be a gentleman, too, to accept my own choice - which will surely be to play as a Non-User. :))

 Fight! Fight! Fight!

For me turned based chess is a very good way to get a deeper knowledge of the game. I normally play 3 move/day games and this is plenty of time to study a position, use the analysis board, look for the postion in game databases, use books, google the moves, etc.

It is important to say that I don't bindly follow the suggested lines but in fact try to undestand the plan behind them. And even with all this support it is very hard to figure out "your" move among the several options.

As a consequence turned based players tend to boost their ratings if compared to normal OTB games. I am sure my OTB rating would be around 1800.

exiledcanuck wrote:

As a side I'm curious how many users play to the bitter end (don't resign) in comparison to non-users.

Extended Personal Profiles (http://www.chess.com/forum/view/community/who-is-player-x) would satisfy your curiousity on this,  exiledcanuck

Also, user stats. could be further broken down to split Lost (and %Lost) into Lost (Checkmated), Lost (Resigned) and Lost (Timed Out).

Ok, first things first, I'm a user.  I fully respect the opinons of those who prefer to play it like it was over the board, and particularly when they allow me to play by the rules without getting all high and mighty about it.  I have played 4 COT players and there was no rancour, just good chess. What gets on my nerves, however, are the worthy types, and there have been a few here, who either imply or state that this is cheating to play by the rules.  If they are too obtuse or stubborn to understand the rules then fair enough, but I wish they wouldn't have the arrogance to imply or even state that this is cheating.

Of course use of the analysis board and opening databases is a big difference from OTB.....and if two players have a game where one uses the extra facilities and one doesn't the "user" (sounds like a drug habit) will have a better chance.  I guess some of you have Ph. D.'s in stating the blinking obvious :-)

Anyone who thinks that a database is the same as using a Fritz engine understands neither imo. The engine will analyse any position, new or old and give a very very strong suggestion.  The dbase only looks at early sequences of moves, and rarely will the game win itself that early, bear in mind that in dbases both players are usually strong, so the advantage is minimal.  Chances of you opponent following every move right to the end is very, very low.....so it's a help but it won't win by itself, you need to have the ability to convert the position.  Also you need the ability to understand wherein lies your advantage.

I had one fun game where my opponent and I were following a game played by Morozevic (white) where white had lost.  I was white.  I had read throught the entire game and saw that in fact Morozevic developed a great position but had made one mistake near the end. My opponent blindly followed the game assuming black was going to win. he only realised he was wrong when it was too late to change track.  So watch out, slavishly following dbase lines can lose you the game if you follow blindly.

So, once again, Fritz gives you the best move, dbase gives you which of the moves that have been played before in that position resulted in won games.  Doesn't take into account the relative strength of the players so if a GM opens 1a3 against a beginner he will win , does that make it the best move? Nor does it give an assesment of the move objectively like the engine: I've played terrible moves, blundering pieces but sometimes gone on to win the game by luck, just reading those moves in isolation won't win you the game, it'll probably lose it...

Someone asked about the relative strengths of the users and no users: a straw poll of the highest rated posters shows they are pretty much all users.  Are they highest simply because they use "open book" rules, or are they better players because they learned by using the tools?  I think it's true to say they know enough about the tools to know they are unlikely to be beaten by a much weaker player just because of the tool.

Once again, each to his or her own imo.  But I do get a bit emotional Mainstreet when I am called a cheat..I know you are not doing so but some of the posters are..even after the rules etc have been explained .  Perhaps they haven't read all the postings yet....prefer to use the power of their brains unaided without looking at the facts and position first...

The only sure way of playing a genuine game of chess that is cheat free is on chess.com live with any match at 5 min blitz or less. It is almost guaranteed that the result is genuine. I think the ratings on there are more accurate because of this.

The ratings on live chess will be a more accurate reflection of blitz abilities but 3 or more days a move is not blitz. To compare the two is like comparing apples and elephants. They aint the same animal!

Lilith wrote:

The only sure way of playing a genuine game of chess that is cheat free is on chess.com live with any match at 5 min blitz or less. It is almost guaranteed that the result is genuine. I think the ratings on there are more accurate because of this.

 I agree with Sharukin, the 2 games are different.  There was one guy at least on live chess who cheated (he's banned now) and was well over 2200, beat WGM Rusa etc, so clearly it is possible to cheat at this too. Indeed i was accused of cheating myself by a guy who i had the temerity to nearly beat....the fact that he was 2100 on live and had only had one loss to my 40 someting didn't seem to gel with him, indeed we played two more games and he won those too, with pretty amazingly perfect play when I looked at the games later with plenty of time.

Strong Blitz players are generally younger and good tacticians....

exiledcanuck wrote:

4) (didn't so much learn this until now... and its about my self) Kirk and Batman (West) should play a celebrity chess match.  Oh it would be awesome

 Oh yeah man. It's on.

Anyone up for settling the Star Wars versus Star Trek and the Pirates versus Ninjas debate with vote chess?

/ninja

Rael, count me in for Star trek team, I can just see Picard saying " I refuse to use the Universal Translator...I will just use the power of my mind." Actually probably not, but Spock might.....

PerfectGent wrote:

an apple is an animal!!!!!!!!!! wow you learn something new everyday

My apple is a large silver curvy box thing. It is also a bit of an animal! Not telling you which bit though.

what, how do you use a computer to play the game for you?  that seems to be a waste of time.  Intuition seems to be the crying legacy of chess, one that should not be thrown away so easily.

user

I'm a user but I believe that some users claim they do not....

Maybe some "Non-users" claim they do but that's just weird....

I would say I only use them (I use my opening book more than anything else....  I don't find the explorer as helpful because I don't always know why a move is good) in openings 1in10 (mainly because I don't have time) games or against opponents that want to play a particular line....

Anthony

tycho, I agree with everything you wrote in post 179.  I was talking though about the general level of player, not GM's.  With regard to Tal, he was in my opinion the greatest tactical player who ever lived, so even when he was relatively old and in ill health he was a force to contend with even for world champions.

MM78, Tal was young and ill when he lost his rematch and title to Botvinnik in 1961.

To tie it up - user.

Wow. Dead heat. Red-state, blue-state, isn't it?