Chess newbie: Please help in position evaluation

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manpages

Hi, we are practicing sicilian with a friend (our level is not even club level) and today we ended up in the position attached below (white to move, white can castle both sides).

Even though it begean good for white with the bishops and queen lined up, putting pressure on black's queen side the last move "??. ... Nf6" attacks white-square bishop, forcing either trying to attack queen in return and (according to my analysis) eventually losing a piece with ??. Nc2 or exchanging the knights (that's what I think white should go here) with "??. Nxf3 exf3" line. The last line is not great for white as well, as it opens up a diagonal for bishop at f8.

I can't help but to think that white attack is soon to be over and black will have an overwhelming counterattack.

Is that true? How would people who know something about chess proceed from here as white and as black?


Thanks for the input, chess.com has such a great community!

belue

First of all I think you mean Nf6 attacking your Bishop. A bit confusing saying the wrong squares and all. The first thing that I notice is your king looking at blacks queen with your light square bishop pinned.  This can't be good ! You can not have a solid attack without castling or without a safe king. So saying this your next move should be obvious. You have to get your king to safety and your Bishop out of the pin. You can not save your bishop because you allowed black to put it in a pin so no need to try to figure out how you can. Next question, are you going to lose a piece? It does look like it and as bad as you need to castle your only hope is to take out one of the bishop's attackers and hope he recaptures with the queen. I don't suggest playing this hope chess but sometimes that's all you can do. So in my opinion you only have one move. Then if he recaptures with the pawn it gives you a chance to get castled. Now, which side do you castle? Which side is safest? Then you might can place your pieces on some better squares and you can win a pawn and fork his rook and bishop with your knight if he's not careful. Something else you have to keep in mind is his Nb4 move threatening to fork your king and rook also opening up his bishop on your pinned bishop. Nb4 threat looks very bad for white! I think he can just ignore your Nxf6 and go Nb4 and your position is ruined. Advice - get castled quicker and then attack or you will not have an attack only something that appears to be an attack. Hope this helps

Shivsky

Trading knights (Nxf6) is pretty much forced to save material and after exf6, don't rush into castling but instead worry about the pawn fork on g5. Perhaps Nxg6 then and you end up with a lot of play still going on for both sides. 

belue

I think white is still lost, and Shivsky did agree with me as I did say that Nxf6 was the only move. I said that you have to take out one of the attackers and that is the only way to do that. Maybe Nb4 isn't a threat as I did say at first. Black would have to play precise but would have an advantage if he done so. White would have some quick counterplay if black slips. Top level play and black wins with ease, not saying that I could do that but I know a few who could! 

manpages
belue wrote:

First of all I think you mean Nf6 attacking your Bishop.

Fixed. Sorry, typical mistake from a newbie to confuse 6 and 3, I guess. I wasn't really looking at the board when I typed that.

Great input, thanks. Your input kind of correlates with my "analysis". Indeed, being castled already would help a lot and now it's all about trying hard not to lose to his counterattack starting with a pawn fork and continuing with developing his bishop.


How about

1. Nc7 Qg8 { or Qf7, or Qc4}

2. Nxg6

 

P.S. I want to note though that the main purpose of this thread was to validate my conclusion that white is in a very bad position in this game. Thanks for your input, gentlemen.

MrEdCollins
manpages wrote:

I can't help but to think that white attack is soon to be over and black will have an overwhelming counterattack.

Is that true? How would people who know something about chess proceed from here as white and as black?

White has no attack in that position.  Black has a won game.  (With best play on both sides.)  After 1.Nxf6 exf6, White is dead in the water.  Black is threatening to win a piece with f5 and g5.  I don't see how White stops both. 

Stockfish gives a clear win for Black, in all variations.

belue

Yea, he can't stop both and! After g5 ad f5 I think that white is in hot water! 

belue
manpages wrote:
belue wrote:

First of all I think you mean Nf6 attacking your Bishop.

Fixed. Sorry, typical mistake from a newbie to confuse 6 and 3, I guess. I wasn't really looking at the board when I typed that.

Great input, thanks. Your input kind of correlates with my "analysis". Indeed, being castled already would help a lot and now it's all about trying hard not to lose to his counterattack starting with a pawn fork and continuing with developing his bishop.


How about

1. Nc7 Qg8 { or Qf7, or Qc4}

2. Nxg6

 

P.S. I want to note though that the main purpose of this thread was to validate my conclusion that white is in a very bad position in this game. Thanks for your input, gentlemen.

That does not work due to 1. Nc7; Qxe4 with check and you are down a piece and without a queen. There is no chance to come back from this line. Then black would be threatening e5 cutting off your bishop support and threatening to win more material. This shuts down whites counterplay Nxg6 because of the two pieces for the rook. So the Nc7 is a bad move and Nxg6 loses due to the 1. Nxg6; Nxe4 2. Nxh8; Nf3 with discovered check by the queen. The king must move so after the king moves say to 3. Kd2; then Nxd5. Now black has two pieces and an uncastled king for the pawn and rook with many more threats and whites knight out of the game. Whites knight on h8 will probably be trapped and captured soon if black doesn't take the kings head off first. Hope this helps

waffllemaster

Evaluation is:

There's lots of tactics for black.  Finish development next time so there won't be so many tactics.

manpages
waffllemaster wrote:

Evaluation is:

There's lots of tactics for black.  Finish development next time so there won't be so many tactics.

I'm sorry to ask a stupid question, but what do you mean "finish development next time"?

waffllemaster

No, it's not stupid, it's a good question.

In the beginning of the game, the pieces "power" so to speak is spread out across the 8 ranks.  The goal of the opening is to claim some central space, bring bishops, knights, and queen off the back rank quickly (and ideally to posts where they influence a central square) and finally castle to a side where your pawn cover is intact (the three pawns extending from the edge have not moved).

After all this is done, you'll notice the rooks are connected on the back rank (no pieces in between them) and at this point your development is complete.

Ok so why is any of that important?  Central space is statistically the most useful space because any piece on (or near) a central square usually has access to both sides of the board.  This means you can shift an attack to either side depending on where you opponent is weak or shift defenders to either side.  And often pieces have the opportunity for a dual purpose (attack and defense).

Bringing them out quickly is important basically because 3 beats 1 and 5 beats 3 Tongue Out.  Maybe you count the pieces and it's equal, but if your opponent has brought all 5 of those pieces into the game (bishops, knights, queen) while you only have 1 or 2 it's going to be bad.

In this game what caught you the most was the last part, castling.  As others noted your bishop is pinned against your king.  So after knight takes knight and black recaptures with the pawn, black threatens a fork on g5, and to win the bishop due to the pin with f5.  If later you play bishop takes knight on c6 you may even have problems with your queen and rook lined up on that diagonal (a skewer).

It can often seem like you have plenty of time, but when lines open (meaning when pawns are exchanged so that pieces have more freedom of movement) it's usually too late.  This position is a good example, where all you need to do is castle to eliminate nearly all the nasty tactics but that 1 move is 1 move you don't have because the action's already started.

The exception to speedy development and castling is when the pawns are deadlocked so to speak, and can't be exchanged in the center for a long time.  In this case it's not going to kill you to fall behind in development because with lines closed there's no way to attack.

On a related note, if you notice you're ahead in development (your bishops, knights, and queen are off the back rank while your opponent still has 2 or 3) and you've castled, then try to open lines (exchange off pawns) quickly.  Almost guaranteed is a successful attack (as long as you spot the tactics).  In cases where you're far ahead in development it's even often worth it to sacrifice material just to clear some pawns out of the way.

MrDamonSmith

Manpages, that's actually well put. Quite succinct. That's basically how I would've worded it. Yeah, what he said. That's even better than blah, blah, etc.

belue

Wafflemaster put it together for your! You don't want to try to figure out your position! You want to figure out this position! Good luck

manpages

@waffllemaster, great reply.

waffllemaster wrote:

It can often seem like you have plenty of time

That's exactly what happened in this game.

I'll try to work on my errors in the next games I play and post PGNs (not only FENs) here.

I'm overwhelmed with the input, gentlemen, you all are great!