#3154
It is the other way around.
Mathematics cannot be solved, but chess can.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0004370201001527
genius!!!! i never knew that.. chess is GREATER THAN MATHEMATICS!!!!???!!.. alright i have changed up my mind.. chess can get solved
The article in 3154 has no value. Mathematics is potentially infinite, so the entirely cannot be discovered. Chess seems to be pseudo-finite. Theoretically it can be fully solved but it will probably never happen.
The comment in #3156 has no value.
(response to post by haiaku, apparently removed)
"Indeed, I did not find claims like: "the initial position is not a draw" by top players of this century, but I think it's equally difficult to find statements like: "the initial position is a draw" by all of them" ++ Some do not care to talk. Those that did talk are unanimous: a draw.
"You acknowledge that there was no unanimous consensus in the last century"
++ Even in the previous century the qualitative and quantitative majority thought / said chess is a draw. Rauzer and Berliner held a minority opinion and believed in white supremacy in chess. Things are different now, as the drawing rate at top level has gone up, as we now have engines, AlphaZero, ICCF and TCEC with a high and rising drawing rate. Even so, inspection of the few decisive games always enables to pinpoint a mistake by the losing side. In the last world championship match all 4 decisive games were drawn positions before that identifyable mistake. Likewise all ICCF WC decisive games have identifyable mistakes, usually because of human factors like illness.
"but the game-theoretic value is not considered scientifically determined, so the number of mistakes cannot be considered scientifically determined."
++ AlphaZero autoplay gives more draws with more time/move even if stalemate = win.
-> How do you explain that under the assumption that chess were a white win?
"they usually avoid simplifications, if they want to increase their chances of winnig."
++ No, top players do not avoid simplifications. Most games among top players are won in the endgame i.e. after simplifications. There are many reasons to simplify. If one side is a pawn up, then that side will place pieces in the center to invite trades to simplify to increase the relative importance of the pawn. The other side usually cannot evade that as it cannot allow the other side to occupy the center that works as high ground. The only exception are rooks, that are equally active from all squares. That is the reason why rook endings occur that often: the defending side can avoid trading rooks.
Top players also simplify to gain a positional advantage: trading an inactive piece for an active piece. Fischer had no inactive pieces: he traded them away.
"I provided arguments that explains the draw rate better than yours"
++ How so? For the last completed ICCF WC I explained the 127 draws, the 6 white wins and the 3 black wins: 126 perfect games with no errors, 1 draw with 2 errors, 9 decisive games with 1 error. I can even pinpoint the 1 error in the 9 decisive games.
-> Can you tell how many games with 0, 1, 2, 3, 4... errors there are under the assumption that chess were white win?
"Do you consider it proven by mathematician Tromp that there are 10^44 legal chess positions?
It's an estimation."
Please do not dodge the question.
-> Do you consider proven, yes, or no?
"the number of legal chess positions is approximately (4.82 +- 0.03) * 10^44"
Tromp first deduced and then induced.
He determined the legality of a sample of 10^6 positions and concluded 10^44 are legal.
If he can use induction, then so can I.
The comment in #3156 has no value.
Homer Simpson moments! 
I did read the link. It consisted of a page of aimless stuff, apparently telling us what a great team of researchers they are. But it's totally uninteresting.
(response to post by haiaku, apparently removed)
"Indeed, I did not find claims like: "the initial position is not a draw" by top players of this century, but I think it's equally difficult to find statements like: "the initial position is a draw" by all of them" ++ Some do not care to talk. Those that did talk are unanimous: a draw.
Incorrect. A small minority of pro. players claimed a win.
"You acknowledge that there was no unanimous consensus in the last century"
++ Even in the previous century the qualitative and quantitative majority thought / said chess is a draw. Rauzer and Berliner held a minority opinion and believed in white supremacy in chess. Things are different now, as the drawing rate at top level has gone up, as we now have engines, AlphaZero, ICCF and TCEC with a high and rising drawing rate. Even so, inspection of the few decisive games always enables to pinpoint a mistake by the losing side. In the last world championship match all 4 decisive games were drawn positions before that identifyable mistake. Likewise all ICCF WC decisive games have identifyable mistakes, usually because of human factors like illness.
Obviously the majority claimed a draw. That's because there's zero evidence for a win.
"but the game-theoretic value is not considered scientifically determined, so the number of mistakes cannot be considered scientifically determined."
++ AlphaZero autoplay gives more draws with more time/move even if stalemate = win.
-> How do you explain that under the assumption that chess were a white win?
"they usually avoid simplifications, if they want to increase their chances of winnig."
++ No, top players do not avoid simplifications. Most games among top players are won in the endgame i.e. after simplifications. There are many reasons to simplify. If one side is a pawn up, then that side will place pieces in the center to invite trades to simplify to increase the relative importance of the pawn. The other side usually cannot evade that as it cannot allow the other side to occupy the center that works as high ground. The only exception are rooks, that are equally active from all squares. That is the reason why rook endings occur that often: the defending side can avoid trading rooks.
The trick is, of course, to simplify when simplification improves your winning chances but it can also be done to decrease your losing chances and you win when your opponent, who seemed to be winning, pushes too hard.
Top players also simplify to gain a positional advantage: trading an inactive piece for an active piece. Fischer had no inactive pieces: he traded them away.
I should have thought that applies to any player above about 1700 strength.
"I provided arguments that explains the draw rate better than yours"
++ How so? For the last completed ICCF WC I explained the 127 draws, the 6 white wins and the 3 black wins: 126 perfect games with no errors, 1 draw with 2 errors, 9 decisive games with 1 error. I can even pinpoint the 1 error in the 9 decisive games.
-> Can you tell how many games with 0, 1, 2, 3, 4... errors there are under the assumption that chess were white win?
"Do you consider it proven by mathematician Tromp that there are 10^44 legal chess positions?
It's an estimation."
Please do not dodge the question.
-> Do you consider proven, yes, or no?
"the number of legal chess positions is approximately (4.82 +- 0.03) * 10^44"
Tromp first deduced and then induced.
An estimation is not a proof. Simple as that.
He determined the legality of a sample of 10^6 positions and concluded 10^44 are legal.
If he can use induction, then so can I.
The article in 3154 has no value. Mathematics is potentially infinite, so the entirely cannot be discovered. Chess seems to be pseudo-finite. Theoretically it can be fully solved but it will probably never happen.
Maths nerd right???? See chess also can get solved and maths is never infinite.. and the statement you have used that chess is pseudo finite is just lame and untrue
It's still does not make sense to say by theory it can be solved but it will never happen.. congrats you already said that it "can" get solved.. by theory.. still what does that comment of yours supposed to mean? Mathematics also can get solved.. so as chess..
Maths=chess chess = maths that's the correct equation
These are plays on words and trying to assign binary A or B to things that are scalar and paradoxical and that have grey areas.
Words are to serve us. Not us to serve the words.
The article in 3154 has no value. Mathematics is potentially infinite, so the entirely cannot be discovered. Chess seems to be pseudo-finite. Theoretically it can be fully solved but it will probably never happen.
Maths nerd right???? See chess also can get solved and maths is never infinite.. and the statement you have used that chess is pseudo finite is just lame and untrue
boi out here posting something untrue about math, gets corrected, and responds with "lol math nerds amiright xdddddddddd"
Well i have changed my mind and chess can also get solved.. pls don't take it as a joke.. chess is like math math is also like chess. But that pseuto finite word is just useless lol 😂🤣😂😂
BTW i said that maths nerd as a joke.. wow how serious you would have become by this one joke lol 🤣😂
I remember commenting after 2000 posts here -
as to the next 1000 posts ... 
what they might look like.
And would it just be essentially a reiteration of the previous 2000 ...
And so far - no answer to my point that a King in check by three pieces being illegal should mean that no 'retrograde analysis' is needed to then instantly determine that a King in check by four pieces is therefore also illegal. And by five pieces and six and so on.
Logic. Not computer crunching.
Dead silence to that.
Because it can't be argued with?
Argument. Disagreement. Conflict. Contest.
Dead forum if that isn't there ?
The spammed claims about five years to solve gets lots of attention.
Lots of continued refutations.
Why - because people want to do that.
Its like refuting flat earth claims.
"Hey - we can refute this."
But the 'chess solved in five years' claimer - like 'flat earth' claimers
never gives in !! The Show Must Go On ...
So by post 4000 in a few weeks - another 1000-post reiteration perhaps.
Not a complaint - just an observation.
Chess won't be solved in five years. Maybe not in five billion years.
But in five years - this forum might still be here.
Chess won't be solved in five years. Maybe not in five billion years.
But in five years - this forum might still be here.
It can be solved bro and it will
Still chess is an great sport. The fact that it's been compared with great subject maths is such an great thing.. i don't anything much to say tho at this argument because at first place i was saying like chess can't get solved as maths=chess..
Whatever let the conclusion be.. it's ok
Chess won't be solved in five years. Maybe not in five billion years.
But in five years - this forum might still be here.
It can be solved bro and it will
Maybe in five gazillion years - if humanity is still around
The number of possible chess positions is Finite.
That really is factual. Really is binary A or B Correct.
As to chess 'solved in our lifetimes' is that possible ?
Not with pseudologic.
Could it be done if there were good enough algorithms - which can also be called software ?
Not with current software. Nor with Snake Oil arguments in the software.
The programmers in the table base projects know the difficulties.
If interviewed they might talk about all of them ...
but to admit some things would one need Sodium Pentothal to get the info out of them?
There's this thing called funding and another thing called 'esprit de corps'
But I don't think the difficulties are top secret or involve a 'conspiracy'
But the programmers would have disdain for talking about same.
Ask an astronaut about his trip to the moon -
offer him paid public interviews ...
but if his contract includes having to talk about how difficult manned space travel would be to Alpha Centauri ... (the nearest star to our sun)
possible response: 'I don't know how you're going to get good viewership from that one ... I'd want a lot more money for that public interview and if you're smart enough to have that kind of money - you wouldn't pay it anyway.."
Chess won't be solved in five years. Maybe not in five billion years.
But in five years - this forum might still be here.
It can be solved bro and it will
Maybe in five gazillion years - if humanity is still around
The number of possible chess positions is Finite.
That really is factual. Really is binary A or B Correct.
As to chess 'solved in our lifetimes' is that possible ?
Not with pseudologic.
Could it be done if there were good enough algorithms - which can also be called software ?
Not with current software. Nor with Snake Oil arguments in the software.
The programmers in the table base projects know the difficulties.
If interviewed they might talk about all of them ...
but to admit some things would one need Sodium Pentothal to get the info out of them?
There's this thing called funding and another thing called 'esprit de corps'
But I don't think the difficulties are top secret or involve a 'conspiracy'
But the programmers would have disdain for talking about same.
Ask an astronaut about his trip to the moon -
offer him paid public interviews ...
but if his contract includes having to talk about how difficult manned space travel would be to Alpha Centauri ... (the nearest star)
possible response: 'I don't know how you're going to get good viewership from that one ... I'd want a lot more money for that public interview and if you're smart enough to have that kind of money - you wouldn't pay it anyway.."
I thought the sun was the nearest star.
#3154
It is the other way around.
Mathematics cannot be solved, but chess can.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0004370201001527