Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4428
"You need to consider all the others"
++ No, the onus of proof is on the one who claims a win with equal material.
The onus of proof in on the one who claims a draw with unequal material.

++No, the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective, but we've apparently decided to ignore that convention and instead place the onus of disproof on everybody else..

tygxc

@4434
"the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective"
++ You claimed 'I know that for a fact', so you have to prove it. Material is even, so a win claim is unlikely to start with. There is no positional advantage. A draw it is.

When I say 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a black win, that is because being a bishop up is known to be winning. I do not have to prove more, but I did and showed a forced checkmate in 82.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4434
"the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective"
++ You claimed 'I know that for a fact', so you have to prove it. Material is even, so a win claim is unlikely to start with. There is no positional advantage. A draw it is.

When I say 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a black win, that is because being a bishop up is known to be winning. I do not have to prove more, but I did and showed a forced checkmate in 82.

++No. I've just decided if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Up to you to prove it's not a Black win. I know it's a Black win so I don't have to prove it.

 

tygxc

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

Since you insist.

I'll use exactly the same method as your proof so you can't fault it.

So 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

tygxc

@4437
47 Rxe5+? is a losing mistake. Then white is down a full rook without any compensation and thus lost without even needing further proof. 47 bxa6 draws as proven @4426.

Now you are welcome to show where in my proof that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82 for black you see any possible improvement for white.

TITAN3338998
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

Since you insist.

I'll use exactly the same method as your proof so you can't fault it.

So 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

A perfect game of chess means both players play the best moves.So why would you sac a full rook for nothing?If that is one of the worse moves?

 

MARattigan
TITAN3338998 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

Since you insist.

I'll use exactly the same method as your proof so you can't fault it.

So 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

A perfect game of chess means both players play the best moves.So why would you sac a full rook for nothing?If that is one of the worse moves?

 

That's covered by @tygxc's impeccable logic; 

But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

tygxc

@4441
"But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way."
++ Yes, but in my proof it is true. Otherwise indicate how white could have played in a different way and not lost. You cannot.
In your 'proof' it is obvious that if white plays differently, i.e. does not blunder his rook, white does not lose.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4441
"But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way."
++ Yes, but in my proof it is true. Otherwise indicate how white could have played in a different way and not lost. You cannot.

++It may be true. You are asserting it and I must prove otherwise.
In your 'proof' it is obvious that if white plays differently, i.e. does not blunder his rook, white does not lose.

++Not obvious at all. I know it's a win for Black. It's up to you to prove otherwise.

 

tygxc

@4443
I have proven that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82, so you have to falsify my proof.
You have 'proven' that 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 and I have falsified your proof. 

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4443
I have proven that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82, so you have to falsify my proof.
You have 'proven' that 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 and I have falsified your proof. 

No you haven't falsified my proof. You've forgotten the bit in your method that says.

But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

It's the main part of your proof and it applies equally to mine.

tygxc

@4447
No, the main part of my proof is a sequence of good moves that lead to checkmate.
Your mocking proof is a sequence of bad moves, starting with blundering a rook.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4447
No, the main part of my proof is a sequence of good moves that lead to checkmate.
Your mocking proof is a sequence of bad moves, starting with blundering a rook.

White's 47 Re5+ was not a blunder.

It's a Black win, so White cannot blunder.

And why would I mock your proof? It is at least adequate for that purpose itself (if for little else).

tygxc

@4449
49 Rxe5? blunders a rook, so the position is no black win but a draw.

MARattigan

I know it's a Black win.

47 Re5+ was not a blunder, but a subtle sacrifice by White to avoid worsening his lost position.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

The word is "refuted". Falsification is different. Falsification is all about the theoretical possibility that something can be refuted. If something cannot be falsified, that means that something isn't based on scientific evidence. Therefore there's no reason to believe that it's true in any case, so it doesn't need to be disproven.

The belief that 2. Ba6 doesn't necessarily lose isn't based on any evidence and therefore it can be discounted. That's because assumptions work both ways and these people calling those who are sure it loses "incorrect" are therefore incorrect themselves. This discussion shouldn't be happening, because the assumption that we cannot tell that Ba6 loses is only based on indirect evidence, perhaps that "something else" may not lose although we think it does.

Basically, Elroch is criticising us for using inductive evidence but his evidence is equally inductive. So he loses.

Actually, I am not criticising anyone for using inductive evidence. The problem is incompetent use of it, directly analogous to the reasoning "I have drawn 10 white balls from this urn, therefore the next ball I draw will be white". Also, when I use inductive reasoning, I don't disguise it, nor do I ever claim certainty. Certainty arises from deductive reasoning (such as the mathematics of Bayesian probability. Theorems are applied and conclusions follow.

Anyone who still has fully functioning cognition should be able to follow the following consideration of what can be achieved with inductive reasoning:

Suppose we want to conclude that the position 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bh6 is winning for white. We start from the time when we have just learnt the rules of chess by have no knowledge of the game.  (Anyone who thinks that at this point we have certain knowledge that the position is a loss for white is clearly delusional, so I hope we can agree that at this point the value of the position is uncertain, i.e. has a probability strictly between 0 and 1 of being a win for white). Take this time to be when chess had just been invented, if you like.

From that point we (the human species, assisted by computers) acquire evidence. This comes in units which we will break down right to the position level - empirical data about what happens in chess games.

At every step in the long path to wisdom by experience we start with a state of belief about whether the opening position is a win or not. This is quantified as a Bayesian probability - a state of belief. After an element of evidence, we have another state of belief about the proposition, quantified as another probability.

The issue is that those who believe we can be genuinely certain about the result of 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bh6 are obliged to say that at some time, the observation of a single new position - eg the end of a game with a result - caused an uncertain belief about the proposition to change to a certain one.

This is absurd except in one single case - when the last position completed a deductive proof that the result of the position is a win (just like the final step in the proof of the result of checkers, or the step that adds a new position to a tablebase, with a certain result (by all of the positions reachable from it in one move also being in the tablebase).

The idea that one elementary piece of inductive evidence could otherwise justify a change from uncertainty to certainty is misguided and simply wrong.

Of course, I understand that the likes of @tygx will simply ignore this truth and go on as before - the ability to improve understanding can be too limited.

[Note, this description is also a close approximation to the way an AI learns chess. At each point in time it has a model with millions of parameters and it revises those parameters based on any mismatch between its probabilistic model and experience.

It would be possible to repeat the development of AlphaZero with all games starting from the position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bh6. This would generate a chess player able to play both sides of this position better than anyone else on the planet. This player would still never be certain about the result of the position of interest (barring issues with machine precision).]

TITAN3338998
Just tell me one thing.If the best chess computers in the world say to repeat moves are the moves then why are you suggesting a move which is clearly worse and not that best?For me in a perfect game of chess only the best moves are played and not the second best.
Elroch

There are different concepts which are referred to as "best", but the key one is that a second-best move leads to a worse result to the best move, assuming table-base optimal play thereafter.

TITAN3338998
I fully agree with you.This is why I am wondering why someone here is thinking that you can play a different move here?