Chess will never be solved, here's why - Chess Forums - Page 218

TheChessIntellectReturns · 2022-01-16T22:50:19-08:00

Imagine a chess position of X paradigms. Now, a chess computer rated 3000 solves that position. All well and good. Could another computer rated a zillion solve that position better than Rybka? No, because not even chess computer zillion could solve the Ruy Lopez better than a sad FIDE master coul

MARattigan

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4341

Elroch wrote:

... Science, by contrast is a black box which takes in observations and generates and tests models which describe patterns in those observations. ...

Is that what Newton would be doing if by using the word "two" in the hypothetical statement I gave or would he be using mathematics?

... you start with an intuitive notion of a mathematical object - eg the counting numbers - then you find some axioms that represent your intuition. ...

In the link I gave those axioms are just the logical axioms.

Then you are off to the races (as say Euclid was).

Only more or less if you read the Elements, but you'd hardly say it wasn't mathematics.

llama36

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4342

btickler wrote:

llama36 wrote:

It goes beyond that though. The fun thing about math is it could still be done even if this universe didn't exist. If nothing we know of existed, we couldn't talk about color or shape or time, etc. But all the math we know right now would still exist.

True, but would it apply to all potential universes? One can posit a universe where all numbers are 1 and all math equations reduce to 1.

I'm tired right now, that's a little too abstract for me.

Off the top of my head, I'd say there's no such thing as a reality that is self contradicting. A sort of "can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it" argument... so while maybe there is some sort of arrangement where all equations are 1 (whatever that means) it can't be self-inconsistent... and as long as it's logical, then it can be expressed mathematically, and so math "works" in all potential universes.

Or

Or maybe not, and sometimes math breaks. That's a little too imaginative for me right now though heh. Maybe some sort of true randomness formulation where logic exists but is irrelevant.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4343

llama36 wrote:

I'm tired right now, that's a little too abstract for me.

Off the top of my head, I'd say there's no such thing as a reality that is self contradicting. A sort of "can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it" argument... so while maybe there is some sort of arrangement where all equations are 1 (whatever that means) it can't be self-inconsistent... and as long as it's logical, then it can be expressed mathematically, and so math "works" in all potential universes.

Or

Or maybe not, and sometimes math breaks. That's a little too imaginative for me right now though heh.

I'm just saying that a universe needs space/distance and distinct/discrete entities for regular math as we know it to apply. If you have a universe where everything is one entity and exists in a singularity, then numbers other than 1 would not exist inside such a universe...you would have to know about other universes for such math to apply.

This would logically be the only exception...because math of multiples can use base 2 for base 1000 to express equations. But base 1 math would be the norm in a singularity. You can still argue that the math works though, in a fashion. It's just that all the inputs and outputs are 1, so it would not be useful.

I guess you could also call the absence of a universe nothing, and claim that it uses base 0 math .

llama36

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4344

Sure, and not all math applies to our universe either.

Then you start wondering about what fraction of total possible universes allow for conscious creatures or intelligent creatures. And then you start thinking about boltzmann brains and what not.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4345

llama36 wrote:

Sure, and not all math applies to our universe either.

Then you start wondering about what fraction of total possible universes allow for conscious creatures or intelligent creatures. And then you start thinking about boltzmann brains and what not.

How does a caveman do math?

"One. Two. Ummm..."

"Many."

llama36

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4346

Yeah, I'm way too tired for this conversation

But it's a fun topic.

And sure, I see what you mean. Math exists but may not be practical, and even then it may be difficult to discover.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4347

llama36 wrote:

Yeah, I'm way too tired for this conversation

But it's a fun topic.

And sure, I see what you mean. Math exists but may not be practical, and even then it may be difficult to discover.

This is probably not worth saying, but just in case...

For the record, the caveman math joke is from my childhood and seemed applicable given the discussion...in no way was I referring to your tiredness .

mpaetz

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4348

NervesofButter wrote:

Elroch wrote:

tygxc wrote:

@5628
"six wrongs don't make a right"
++ But six rights leave no doubt.

No, 6 individually inadequate pieces of evidence leave no doubt in the mind of someone unequipped to deal with uncertainty correctly. Such as you.

They entirely fail to do this for anyone who knows what solving a game is.

But 2 lefts make a U turn.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

MARattigan

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4349

Optimissed wrote:

btickler wrote:

llama36 wrote:

It goes beyond that though. The fun thing about math is it could still be done even if this universe didn't exist. If nothing we know of existed, we couldn't talk about color or shape or time, etc. But all the math we know right now would still exist.

True, but would it apply to all potential universes? One can posit a universe where all numbers are 1 and all math equations reduce to 1.

Only an imaginary and non-existent universe. Positing it doesn't make it in any way real or useful.

And you wouldn't be there anyway, at least not with both your legs intact.

rumialol

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4350

tygxc wrote:

#12
Here is what solved means:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game

I doubt Go will be solved before chess. Lee Sedol even won a game against AlphaGo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo_versus_Lee_Sedol

true, the thing about the game against alpha go was that it was the first real attempt at creating an ai for go, think deep blue vs kasparov. Alphazero was actually able to play go, chess, and shogi but people only really talk about its chess. the alphago that lee beat that time was beaten 100 to 0 by alphago master and that gets dominated by alphago zero which is slightly worse at go than the same alphazero that we chess fans talk about all the time. apparently deepminds mu:zero was better than alphazero at all 3 games while being better than any human at over 40 atari games but they never released any of its chess footage.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4351

Optimissed wrote:

Only an imaginary and non-existent universe. Positing it doesn't make it in any way real or useful.

I see. So you can heal people with your mind, but multiple universes are out of the question .

llama36

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4352

btickler wrote:

llama36 wrote:

Yeah, I'm way too tired for this conversation

But it's a fun topic.

And sure, I see what you mean. Math exists but may not be practical, and even then it may be difficult to discover.

This is probably not worth saying, but just in case...

For the record, the caveman math joke is from my childhood and seemed applicable given the discussion...in no way was I referring to your tiredness .

Nah, I didn't take it as a jab.

Also is it really a joke? Because I heard a story about teaching some forgotten tribe basic skills. The children were able to learn to count, but the adults struggled... because in their language and culture, it truly was "one, two, many" heh.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4353

Optimissed wrote:

I didn't know your understanding is improving. Yes to both.

More relevantly, multiple universes is conjecture that's more suited to corny sci-fi from the 50s and before. It's nonsense and there's zero evidence for it. Acually, it would be impossible to obtain evidence since another universe is wholly disconnected from other universes. Otherwise they don't count as other universes but just part of THE universe.

Before you ask for a link, I probably came up with that argument myself. I have seen it repeated recently, well over 10 years after I came up with it. I know for a fact that a lot of people read me on Facebook, back in the day.

If you can't get evidence, it doesn't count as science. It certainly isn't theory. Therefore that makes it fiction.

Yes, we know all about your fame and fortune on Facebook. Thanks for not mentioning you are the top debater Facebook has ever known, that was considerate of you.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4354

Optimissed wrote:

You'd be more interesting, btickler .... er .... if you could manage to be ineresting. Why not have a bash eh? After all, you're among friends here .... no need to be shy. Give us a shock.

Always the overreaching and empty additional post ...you really should work on that. Just sit on your hands and find the right move, to put it in chess parlance...

MARattigan

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4355

No. Healing with your mind would be impossible. They'd finish up with leprosy.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4356

Optimissed wrote:

Very good but I suggest we leave it to the expert, who knows all about its non-existence.

Your ploy to get me to try to take a stand on something you know you can cast doubt on endlessly is noted, but I don't have time to waste teaching you why "mind over matter" is not possible for you.

You'll have to settle for all the other times I've blown your arguments out of the water.

MARattigan

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4357

Can't you do this on the Qanon site?

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4358

Optimissed wrote:

The "in your mind" version or the real one? You couldn't blow a gnat out of the water.

You might be hard-pressed to find someone who can blow a gnat out of the...water?

You are mixing your metaphors. It's ships that we blow out of the water, and gnats that we shoo away from picnics. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Elroch

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4359

I never change my horses in the bush in time.

DiogenesDue

Sep 30, 2022

0

#4360

Optimissed wrote:

Yes I often like to mix metaphors. One reason is that it irritates unimaginative people.

Yes, I'm sure that is the reason you tell yourself.