Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc  wrote:

@4408

This may well be a perfect game indeed.

++No it's not.

A draw was agreed, but after 51...Rf2 it's a win for Black.

(I know that for a fact, it's just I can't play the win against Stockfish.)

Avatar of Kotshmot
tygxc wrote:

@4417

"all errors are different"
++ No, an error (?) is a move that changes the game state from draw to loss or from won back to draw. A blunder (??) or double error is a move that changes the game state from won to loss.

"After the first error there could be plenty of lines to force a draw" ++ No, starting with a draw any error leads to a lost position. In a lost position no line can force a draw.

"You dont have the data necessary to calculate the probabilities."
++ 136 games, 17 ICCF (grand)masters with engines, 50 days / 10 moves is enough and reliable data to calculate.

You didnt quite catch my point. You can't calculate probability for an x amount of errors occuring during a game, because the first error will have a different probability from the next one. To avoid error #1 you might have 3 possible lines you could follow to force a win against perfect play for example. To avoid error #2 you might have 20 possible lines you could follow to force a draw.

Your calculations and logic is over simplified.

Avatar of TITAN3338998
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc  wrote:

@4408

This may well be a perfect game indeed.

++No it's not.

A draw was agreed, but after 51...Rf2 it's a win for Black.

(I know that for a fact, it's just I can't play the win against Stockfish.)

 

It’s a draw by repetition!So I am wondering how Black scoula play the next move?

 

Avatar of tygxc

@4421
"Your calculations and logic is over simplified."
++ I use simple, high school math.
However, try to come up with another plausible error distribution under any of the 3 hypotheses: chess is a draw / white win / black win that explains:
127 draws, 6 white wins, 3 black wins
Number of games with 0 errors = ...
Number of games with 1 error = ...
Number of games with 2 errors = ...
Number of games with 3 errors = ...
You can use whatever simple or complicated logic and calculations you want.
Just give the numbers.
I predict you cannot find any plausible distribution under hypotheses white wins or black wins.
I also predict you cannot find any plausible distribution under hypothesis draw that differs substantially from the 126 with 0 error, 9 with 1 error, 1 with 2 errors I found.

Avatar of MARattigan
TITAN3338998 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc  wrote:

@4408

This may well be a perfect game indeed.

++No it's not.

A draw was agreed, but after 51...Rf2 it's a win for Black.

(I know that for a fact, it's just I can't play the win against Stockfish.)

 

It’s a draw by repetition!So I am wondering how Black scoula play the next move?

 

++So it is, now you mention it.

I should have said 46...Rf2.

Avatar of tygxc

@4420
No, even if the draw by 3-fold repetition were not claimed, 51...Rf2 is a draw just the same and not a win for black. So it is no fact and you do not know.
Whether you can win that against Stockfish or not does not matter.
A win is a win, a draw is a draw, regardless of whether you can play that against Stockfish or not.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4420
No, even if the draw by 3-fold repetition were not claimed, 51...Rf2 is a draw just the same and not a win for black. So it is no fact and you do not know.
Whether you can win that against Stockfish or not does not matter.
A win is a win, a draw is a draw, regardless of whether you can play that against Stockfish or not.

++Sorry, I know 46...Rf2 a win for Black.

You have to prove me wrong.

Avatar of tygxc

@4424
No, 46...Rf2 is a draw just the same. 47 bxa6 bxa6 48 Rb3 Bc5 49 Rb8 Rf1+ 50 Kc2 etc.

Avatar of Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@4398

"Explain this further. I'm missing the part where you point out why for example this theoretical outcome couldn't be the case, and only D) is consistent.
W) it means 6 games with an even number of errors, 127 games with an odd number of errors and 3 games with an even number of errors at least 2"
++ Let us assume W): chess is a white win and try to explain the observed 127 draws, 6 white wins, 3 black wins. At first sight you could think:
6 games with 0 error,
127 games with 1 error,
3 games with 2 errors.
However, that is not plausible.
How could there be so many games with 2 errors and so few with 0 or 3 errors?

Actually that would be entirely unsurprising given the paucity of double error games. The statistically surprising thing would be that black is benefiting much more from the errors than white.

And this is where your understanding comes to an end. For some reason you are unable to take the step that acknowledges that an outcome which is unlikely remains logically possible.

It's like if you toss a coin 20 times and get 20 heads, to be certain the coin is biased is a blunder. Rather it is appropriate to think it is likely the coin is biased and to observe that if it were not biased, the result would still occur 1 in a million times.

[It would be hazardous to try to reason from this retrospectively, as we could do likewise for many "unlikely" outcomes. Eg all tails, or alternate heads and tails. All outcomes are actually equally unlikely! This is why it is important to specify the outcomes of interest before experiments begin.]

Anyhow, you are in an analogous position, saying the coin is definitely biased. You can be probably right while being definitely wrong to be certain.

The sound way to infer from results is to start with an a priori belief as to what the value of the game of chess is and then modify that belief using Bayesian inference as you gather data. Bayesian probability was elegantly described as "the logic of science" by Jaynes, and never reaches boolean certainty, but rather very strong levels of belief.

Avatar of MARattigan
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@4424
No, 46...Rf2 is a draw just the same. 47 bxa6 bxa6 48 Rb3 Bc5 49 Rb8 Rf1+ 50 Kc2 etc.

++No, 47 bxa6 bxa6 48 Rb3 Bc5 49 Rb8 Rf1+ 50 Kc2 0-1 is only one possible perfect continuation. You need to consider all the others.

And @4424's rating is only 400 so that proves nothing.

 

 

Avatar of Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@4412
If the probability of 1 error is E = 127 / 136,
then the probability of 2 errors would be E² = 0.87
hence the expected number of games with 2 errors would be 119 and not 3 as observed.
Under the hypothesis that chess were a white win it is not possible to find a consistent error distribution explaining the observed 127 draws, 6 white wins, 3 black wins.

Do you even understand that the most you can do is merely to show that this outcome would be very unlikely? Is that really too difficult for you?

Avatar of tygxc

@4431
"show that this outcome would be very unlikely"
++ But come up with any other explanation but 126 with 0 error, 9 with 1 error, 1 with 2 errors.
You can use whatever you like, Poisson distribution or geometrical distribution, whatever, but show figures, not words.

Avatar of tygxc

@4428
"You need to consider all the others"
++ No, the onus of proof is on the one who claims a win with equal material.
The onus of proof in on the one who claims a draw with unequal material.

Avatar of tygxc

@4429
"The sound way to infer from results is to start with an a priori belief as to what the value of the game of chess is and then modify that belief using Bayesian inference as you gather data."
++ I know more about statistics and probability than coin flips. If you say my simple high school math way is not 'sound', I am willing to accept that. But then please come up with a 'sound' or 'rigourous' error distribution of number of games with 0, 1, 2, ... errors to explain 127 draws, 6 white wins and 3 black wins.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4428
"You need to consider all the others"
++ No, the onus of proof is on the one who claims a win with equal material.
The onus of proof in on the one who claims a draw with unequal material.

++No, the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective, but we've apparently decided to ignore that convention and instead place the onus of disproof on everybody else..

Avatar of tygxc

@4434
"the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective"
++ You claimed 'I know that for a fact', so you have to prove it. Material is even, so a win claim is unlikely to start with. There is no positional advantage. A draw it is.

When I say 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a black win, that is because being a bishop up is known to be winning. I do not have to prove more, but I did and showed a forced checkmate in 82.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4434
"the onus of proof is normally on the one who claims irrespective"
++ You claimed 'I know that for a fact', so you have to prove it. Material is even, so a win claim is unlikely to start with. There is no positional advantage. A draw it is.

When I say 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a black win, that is because being a bishop up is known to be winning. I do not have to prove more, but I did and showed a forced checkmate in 82.

++No. I've just decided if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Up to you to prove it's not a Black win. I know it's a Black win so I don't have to prove it.

 

Avatar of tygxc

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@4436
So the 860 rated player 'knows' and does not have to prove.
I at least showed the forced checkmate in 82 of 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6, though it is obvious.

Since you insist.

I'll use exactly the same method as your proof so you can't fault it.

So 46...Rf2 is a forced checkmate in 10 moves.
But what if white plays differently?
Then white loses in a different way.

Avatar of tygxc

@4437
47 Rxe5+? is a losing mistake. Then white is down a full rook without any compensation and thus lost without even needing further proof. 47 bxa6 draws as proven @4426.

Now you are welcome to show where in my proof that 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is a forced checkmate in 82 for black you see any possible improvement for white.