Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You aren't aware that there's always been a glitch, which they haven't bothered to repair? If you delete the wrong part of what you're quoting, you're then unable to write in the box. I hadn't understood the pattern because it's quite complex.

Missed this one before.  Ummm, yes I am aware.  I've been posting here for a decade and I quote and then edit every reply I make to remove excess nested comments (with very few exceptions).  It's certainly annoying, but not particularly complex.

They used some form of TinyMCE-like free source code to create the editor, and it has not received much love over the years.  The analysis editor added on is by the far the most work.

mpaetz
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

 

mpaetz did u see the part where i said that there is/was some definition confusion?  also, you are making a mistake on a difference that optimissed and I pointed out.  that is the difference between a scientific proof and a math proof. 

whether the sun is egg is a scientific question.  the complexity of solving chess is a math question. 

also physics at that level is so freaking complex that optimissed cant be faulted for not knowing exactly what it was about (what he said was also somewhat rhetorical).

     To quote American humorist Foghorn Leghorn; "That's a joke son. I say that's a joke." Not meant to be taken seriously. Only pointing out how ridiculous some comments here have been.

mpaetz
tygxc wrote:

@8103

"Sveshnikov's plan: the conclusion has been reached before the investigation begins"
++ The aim of weakly solving Chess is not to ascertain that Chess is a draw, we already know that, but rather to establish how.

     Exactly. You already have the conclusion and make sure you don't investigate enough possibilities to risk finding out it may be incorrect.

mpaetz
tygxc wrote:

@8104

"so we will arbitrarily start from a few selected positions with 20% of the pieces eliminated"

++ No, not arbitrarily, but thoughtfully. That is why Sveshnikov first asked for good assistants and then for modern computers. That is why the grandmasters are as essential as the computers.
I presented a complete rationale starting from an ICCF WC draw as the seeded line.

     One man's "thoughtful" is another man's "arbitrary". Your arbitrary selection of likeminded "experts" to cull the lines to be examined by  admittedly imperfect machines cannot produce something that many people will consider a believable solution.

mpaetz
Optimissed wrote:


I wouldn't mind betting that chess is a draw with someone who thinks it may not be. Or betting that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white with someone who thinks it may not. neither would have a chance of winning so I could make a lot of l=money on an accumulator betting their dollar (or a £) against my million, a thousand times. Not that I have a million. I could borrow it against the certainty I would win.

     As you have often expressed the opinion here that unassailable proof on these points is either impossible to obtain or lies countless years in the future you would face financial ruin.

     I do agree with you on both points but you won't be able to produce any proof that will convince doubters to pay up.

Intellectual_26

Someone show an advantage for Black, here;

https://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=10&n=347&ms=e4.e5.Nf3.Nc6.Bb5.Nf6.d4.Nxe4.O-O&ns=3.5.5.6.5.273.1722.18420.347

Intellectual_26

Howdy ha!

Intellectual_26

A multiple of 100 is reached by Me, yet again!

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@8103

"Sveshnikov's plan: the conclusion has been reached before the investigation begins"
++ The aim of weakly solving Chess is not to ascertain that Chess is a draw, we already know that, but rather to establish how.

     Exactly. You already have the conclusion and make sure you don't investigate enough possibilities to risk finding out it may be incorrect.


I wouldn't mind betting that chess is a draw with someone who thinks it may not be. Or betting that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white with someone who thinks it may not. Neither would have a chance of winning, so I could make a lot of money on an accumulator, betting their dollar (or a £) against my million, a thousand times. Not that I have a million. I could borrow it against the certainty I would win.

I'll take your bet that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white at odds of 10^24 to 1.  How much do you want to stake?

MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@8165

"you arent just calculating 1 black response"
++ I use the already calculated ICCF WC draws as seeded lines.
I take the black moves as they were and explore white alternatives.

thats making an assumption that black's moves are perfect/good.  also, you need to calculate moves by black in response to white moves that differ from the seed.  

MEGACHE3SE

"Probably 1 e4 e5 and 1 e4 c5 draw as well,
but we only need one to weakly solve Chess, so the other is not relevant."

actually no, both are relevant, because you dont know which one draws, wins, or loses. you choose one, and if that one fails, you have to check the other.  but you cant gaurentee that the first one you choose works

MEGACHE3SE

tygxc you are also still assuming a draw.  

MEGACHE3SE

my GUESS is a draw.  it hasnt yet been proven, though.

MEGACHE3SE
shangtsung111 wrote:

hikaru says also  draw but he is very confident.when they asked he says" just we know it"

its extremely statistically likely.  

mpaetz

     Most of us, myself included, agree it's a draw, but also realize that neither the strongest human players nor the best contemporary engines can irrefutably demonstrate that this is true.

fastwalker

Asserting anything about the distant future is wholly misguided, with the exception of this statement.

mpaetz

     The only constant is change. Mais, plus sa change, plus c'est la meme chose.

tygxc

@8203

"making an assumption that black's moves are perfect/good"
++ No assumption is needed:
it becomes certain when the black moves lead to a 7-men endgame table base draw,
or a prior 3-fold repetition.

tygxc

@8204

"both are relevant, because you dont know which one draws, wins, or loses. you choose one,
and if that one fails, you have to check the other"
++ No: the grandmasters chose the best candidate to draw as black disregarding all alternatives. If a 7-men endgame table base draw or a 3-fold repetition is reached in all lines,
then in retrospect the selected black move was right.
Yes, if 1 e4 e5 were to fail, then 1 e4 c5 would have to be checked, but that is not realistic.
You cannot find any white win after 1 e4 e5.

tygxc

@8208

"hikaru says also draw but he is very confident. when they asked he says we just know it"
++ 'That ... every even integer is a sum of two primes,
I regard as a completely certain theorem, although I cannot prove it.' - Euler
Still considered true, still unproven.