Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

In my opinion, tygxc is correct and it's about time one or two people came to understand what I was arguing years ago.

tygxc isn't talking about strongly solving, which, in his lingo, refers to an immense web of dependent and co-dependent moves, which are reputed to be able to show strongest play or merely good play (play which doesn't lose) from any point. Constructing a complete tablebase from the initial position is hopeless and impossible.

Ultra-weakly is essentially heuristic, which includes taking games from samples which some will consider insufficient and others will disagree with them. The entire nomenclature or definition-base is unfit for purpose because it lads straight into these continual misunderstandings between people.

The reason so called "weakly" solving requires a strong solution is that although weakly solving is supposedly solving chess for from the pov of one side alone, in that only a sort of repertoire for any move by the opponent is required, it was completely forgotten that that repertoire move against any position has to be calculated by the same method used to calculate a strong solution and thus a strong solution is required.

I did point all this out years ago but no-one understood me except a few people passing through, leading me to form my present opinion of the motivation (and perhaps abilities) of some here. I believe it's necessary to entirely drop the terms "strongly" and "weakly" solving, not necessarily for the purposes of this conversation, which is for us to learn from, but definitely in any new undertaking to "solve chess". The entire idea of managing to construct a table-base for the entirety of chess is so flawed as to be rather ridiculous. Any solution has to be heuristically based, which means a complete and novel breakthrough in algorithmic depiction of various phases of chess games.

Luckily, your floundering in these discussions across multiple threads are still available for anyone to read, so your revisionist history is available on demand...

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

This sentence is or may be to the effect that next to be solved in order of difficulty will probably be Othello, which will require considerably more resources than draughts (checkers): the implication being that solving chess isn't on the horizon.

I noticed RATMAR making his usual commentary. He's fast becoming a member of the cabal, known to many as the "League of Losers". There are one or two semi-competent members so other members who are teetering on or over the edge of senile dementia are clearly required, to keep standards down or up, depending on whether you're standing on your head, which would be quite a mean feet, could it be acheived.

Lol. "Known to many" meaning, of course, that you made it up and sent it in PMs to other crackpots in some obsequious fashion...

Why are you trying to create a false impression (read "lie") that I communicate to people via pm all the time? It obviously bothers you but I don't do so much and it's usually about chess or something interesting. Not about you, although I understand that you'll find it hard to believe. I talked a bit to Ghostess and hapless when Elroch blocked me, about three months ago, mainly because I'd been trying to get along with him,

no (and you seriously expect anyone to believe that?)

hadn't done anything wrong at all

no

and so it was proven beyond all possibility of any doubt that Elroch was at fault and that he's completely dishonest and manipulative.

no

Also that contradicts your most recent previous lie here.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

In my opinion, tygxc is correct [snip]

That's strange, some guy called @Optimissed has been previously (correctly) pointing out he has been consistently incorrect, like several other people. Is agreement so unpleasant for you?

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

[snip]

Ultra-weakly is essentially heuristic

[snip]

Absolutely not. You seem to have a real problem understanding definitions of standard terms in mathematical subjects.

An ultra-weak solution is a rigorous (i.e. deductive) proof that one of the player wins. Just like all valid proofs in mathematics.

BigChessplayer665
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:

Optimised v Elroch

the chesscom heavyweight battle.

i am taking bets, minimum stake 20000 dollars.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:

Finished. I have nothing more to say.

We all know you have nothing more to say, but we're painfully aware that you'll say it nevertheless.

MEGACHE3SE

lmfao tygxc acting like he's still relavent

MARattigan

@Optimissed not only doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't even know that he doesn't know.

MARattigan

Remember to take your medication.

DiogenesDue
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:

Optimised landed a nice right hook!!

he is leading on points.

He didn't, and you know it full well...this is just pot stirring for your own amusement.

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:
playerafar wrote:

@MARattigan
Martin - 
...
Try this Martin - as long as Kings aren't adjacent and pawns are on any of their 48 squares - then all positions of three pieces with either side to move are all legal and legally reachable. Can you show an exception to the forum?

...

Very easily, even with the conventional understanding I mentioned in #10349.

Here are a few.

 
 
White to move
 

Competition rules only:

White to play, ply count 149
 

That last is only partially described, but applies to any position that fits the description.

Here is one (either game) with two men, courtesy of Andrew Buchanan.

 
White has the move

OK Martin - you win that particular one.
Good.
Any position where a King is in check and the checking player is to move is illegal even if its checkmate. Because you couldn't get there.
Plus any position where a King is in check from a pawn on its original square.
Good. Couldn't be.
You're right Martin.
Well posted. And yes I should have thought of those but didn't.
-----------------------------------
But now - Martin there seems to be a semantics situation with illegal versus legally unreachable.
And
-------------------------------------
Martin do you get it about the 500+ multiplier I'm suggesting that so multiplies the number of possible positions each time a piece is added?
Yes - some rotations and reflections can be solved instantly because their precursor was already solved - but they should still be counted in the total position count.
tygxc's 26 billion and his 3.7 trillion don't coordinate.
You've got over 55 squares to add one of 8 piece types to and over 40 squares to add one of two pawn types to.
That's 520 right there.
When you add an eighth piece you've got over 500 times as many positions.
By the way - when various positions are slided one file to the right or left - the solution and result might be the same - but its still a different position.
Everything's got to be counted.
Fact - took them Seven Years to add one piece.
Even if the project was only active a year of that seven ... with valid shortcuts -
that's still 500 years to add the next piece.

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:

@Optimissed not only doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't even know that he doesn't know.

Martin correct as usual.
And obviously the Octopus-creature is furious with Elroch month in month out ... and probably will continue to be. 'O' being fragile and delicate can't take being blocked. And that block continues to be Righteous.
And Elroch is in the right and the O-guy is always misguided which tends to knock out any situations when O has any accuracy.
Elroch is suggesting that 'weakly solved' can be Rigorous ...
Its a matter of semantics but I continue to state that 'weakly solved' is poor coining of semantics for the contexts concerned.
They should be using better terms.

MEGACHE3SE

the terms of "ultra weakly solved, weakly solved, strongly solved" are all well defined and require rigorous proof. most of the disagreement comes from the fact that people do not understand the terms properly, or do not understand the rigor required for the proof.

tygxc

Rigor is not the same as agnosticism, purism, or stupidity.
Demanding a game tree to dismiss 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? as a viable try to win for white is no rigor.

tygxc

@10388

"these 3 definitions implement very differently for different games" ++ Yes.

"for chess, weakly solved and strongly solved are both >10^40 endeavors" ++ No.
Strongly solving Chess requires 10^44 legal positions, weakly solving 10^17 relevant positions.

im_ghostburger
ÆEAEGHAAUÆ
MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

Rigor is not the same as agnosticism, purism, or stupidity.
Demanding a game tree to dismiss 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? as a viable try to win for white is no rigor.

actually its literally the definition of mathematical rigor. LMFAO. tygxc showing his middle school math education per usual.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

the terms of "ultra weakly solved, weakly solved, strongly solved" are all well defined and require rigorous proof. most of the disagreement comes from the fact that people do not understand the terms properly, or do not understand the rigor required for the proof.

The terms were introduced by games theorists. They have no connection to "solving chess" since the so-called strong solution is known to be impossible, so what are you talking about?

You can't prove a definition, by the way. A definition is a descriptive meaning that is applied to a name. If you keep listening to Elroch, you are not going to learn a thing.

It should be obvious to anybody who is not seriously subnormal that the question is about solving chess in terms of game theory. If that is currently impossible (it can't be logically impossible) then the answer is simply it can't currently be solved, not let's waffle on about something else instead and call that solving.

And it should also be obvious to anyone not severely subnormal that when @MEGACHE3SE says that the definitions require rigorous proof it means that the definitions include a requirement that solutions meeting the conditions require rigorous proof, not that the definitions themselves require rigorous proof. (Reflect on your second paragraph.)

Before posting on the subject you should understand what solving chess involves in terms of game theory. It's not hard for most people. If it proves to be impossible for you then the answer is simply to refrain from posting.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:

MAR wrote:
<<<<And it should also be obvious to anyone not severely subnormal that when @MEGACHE3SE says that the definitions require rigorous proof it means that the definitions include a requirement that solutions meeting the conditions require rigorous proof, not that the definitions themselves require rigorous proof. (Reflect on your second paragraph.)>>>>

Oh dear me.
If the rigorous proof or proofs don't exist then the definitions are wrong. Did I really have to spell it out?

You didn't have to. What you just said confirms you haven't the slightest clue, but what you actually said was, "You can't prove a definition, by the way", which in the context was totally mindless.

We have only your word for it that << the question is about solving chess in terms of game theory. If that is currently impossible (it can't be logically impossible) >>

That's what "solving" means in normal parlance, not whatever Humpty Dumpty Optimissed means it to say, no more, no less. 

is true. That, of course "it can't be logically impossible" is true. I think more than likely it is logically impossible if it is impossible in any foreseeable, practical terms.

So Humpty Dumpty has a different meaning of "logic" from everybody else too. 

A computer that can do it isn't on the horizon yet. The software isn't, either. The methodology looks so incredibly complex and expensive that I believe it will never be accomplished. In any case, you don't have a clue what Game Theory actually is, do you.

How on Earth would you know? You haven't just failed to understand any of it's terms, you also failed to grasp any of the underlying ideas.

tygxc

@10435

"Game Theory is a statistics-based approach which depends on probability "
++ You confound Game theory (not applicable) and Combinatorial game theory (applicable).