Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MEGACHE3SE
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

#11055

"there is no strategy stealing for chess"

1 c3 e5 2 c4 steals 1 e4 c5.
1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 d3 Nc6 4 d4 steals 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5.
For all tentative black wins there exists a white steal of it.

Er, were the first two lines meant to be a proof of the third? Can't help feeling something is missing somewhere.

He may be onto something. All he has to do now is to steal a set of positions so large that one of them appears in any black strategy

that's the bit I thought was missing.

(rather than the usual version of strategy stealing - stealing the first position, which cannot work). To put it another way, white has to find a set of positions one of which can be forced on black, and one of which appears in every possible black strategy (with colours reversed). This is not entirely obviously impossible, even if it seems unlikely.

Intuitively white has to find a way to waste a move in every line without black wasting a move. Thar's the rub - it seems just as easy for black to waste a move at some time, and he only has to manage it in a single strategy to stop white's valliant attempt to steal.

Note that strategy stealing by white cannot distinguish whether white has a winning strategy or a drawing strategy.

the bit that tygxc misses is that he doesnt get to choose black's response.

by definition, the strategy steal must encompass ALL possible black responses.

MEGACHE3SE
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@11043

"strategy stealing is of no detectable relevance to the solution of chess"
++ Strategy stealing is a way to prove the game-theoretic value of the initial position cannot be a black win, as white can steal the strategy of any tentative black win.
Anyway it is obvious from other considerations e.g. the initiative that Chess cannot be a black win and observed results confirm that.

On the contrary, you yourself prove that it's a Black win.

You base your Poisson distribution of blunders on the assumption that the probability of a blunder on any given move is constant throughout the game.

If you consider this game, in the final position (shown) White is theoretically losing ( you can check that here https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/7P/8/8/8/5K2/7r/3k4_w_-_-_1_47).

 
 

White's probability of blundering on the next move is therefore 0 since he cannot alter the position for the worse. From your assumption, White's probability of blundering was therefore 0 throughout the game and since he only ever had a finite choice of moves it follows he made no blunders.

But if White has made no blunders and is in a losing position it follows that Chess is a win for Black.

QED as you put it.

here's the goofy part, tygxc claims that only "sufficiently strong" players match the claimed distribution. (with no justification btw)

this allows him to ignore all non zero values for his "proof" because he simply claims them as "not strong enough"

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

So many examples of projection!

There is no relationship between complexity and whether strategy stealing works. For example games like hex or tictactoe (but with modified objectives) on a 1000001 x 1000001 board are vastly more complex than chess but strategy stealing works just as simply to show the first player wins. Of course that is no help at all to actually winning!

However, your pronouncements are ridiculous, [snip]

You are confusing 'ridiculous' and ' objective factual content' (something very rare in your posts.

Elroch. I'm more intelligent than you are [snip]

It is comical how often you make this assertion, and how little reason you give anyone to believe it. But do continue - it is genuinely entertaining.
Intelligent people may be interested in the quantification of game complexity
(you can ignore this).

Only just about everything you say makes me understand that I'm right. It's comical how often you get things wrong. If you were a faster learner, you'd have stopped doing it by now.

Look, you believe you're better at this sort of thing than ty, don't you. I'm not so sure. I think you're similar to one-another. If you can believe you're better at stuff than ty, I can believe the same about you. There's no difference really. I know you aren't capable of thinking creatively and logically. You aren't brilliant. Simple as that. Goodnight.

Now you have a chance to redeem yourself and show you are a stellar genius.

Link one example of me being objectively wrong and justify your claim well enough to convince a few people who are coherent. You are capable of communication, right? I am also assuming that you know what "objectively" means (which may be a bit reckless, to be frank).

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, I'm hardly the only one who condemns strategy stealing as an argument for chess.

To my knowledge, the only person in this thread who has said strategy stealing can be used for chess was @tygxc, and he may have later realised he was wrong.

mrhjornevik
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, I'm hardly the only one who condemns strategy stealing as an argument for chess. Experts on this sort of stuff also have said that their opinion is that it's nonsense. I'm not an expert but my arguments are similar to theirs, that chess is too complex, so it isn't proveable, so you can't claim it. It would just be like doing exactly the same as you condemn in tygxc.

Even so, I am more confident than you are that chess is drawn, due to my own argument, which I've mentioned. It's a sort of paper algorithm.

Strategy stealing is not viable in chess, but not because of the complexety. Ss works in hex because

1) every move leads closer to the end while in chess we could move pices around indefinitly.

2) since the game is done in a finite about of moves the first move will be decisive

mrhjornevik

@optimissed. Whats you argument agains cantor?

MARattigan
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, I'm hardly the only one who condemns strategy stealing as an argument for chess.

To my knowledge, the only person in this thread who has said strategy stealing can be used for chess was @tygxc, and he may have later realised he was wrong.

No, @Optimissed has said it too.

MARattigan
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@11043

"strategy stealing is of no detectable relevance to the solution of chess"
++ Strategy stealing is a way to prove the game-theoretic value of the initial position cannot be a black win, as white can steal the strategy of any tentative black win.
Anyway it is obvious from other considerations e.g. the initiative that Chess cannot be a black win and observed results confirm that.

On the contrary, you yourself prove that it's a Black win.

You base your Poisson distribution of blunders on the assumption that the probability of a blunder on any given move is constant throughout the game.

If you consider this game, in the final position (shown) White is theoretically losing ( you can check that here https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/7P/8/8/8/5K2/7r/3k4_w_-_-_1_47).

 
 

White's probability of blundering on the next move is therefore 0 since he cannot alter the position for the worse. From your assumption, White's probability of blundering was therefore 0 throughout the game and since he only ever had a finite choice of moves it follows he made no blunders.

But if White has made no blunders and is in a losing position it follows that Chess is a win for Black.

QED as you put it.

here's the goofy part, tygxc claims that only "sufficiently strong" players match the claimed distribution. (with no justification btw)

That's why I put one of his own games in as the example. He claims to infallably evaluate positions and recognise blunders.

this allows him to ignore all non zero values for his "proof" because he simply claims them as "not strong enough"

tygxc

@11068

"the implementation of solutions are specific to each game"
++ Yes, like for Chess prune 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? right away.
Weak solutions of Connect Four (by Allis), Losing Chess, and Checkers used game knowledge. Weakly solving Chess needs even more game knowledge.

"elimination of 27 orders of magnitude is larger than all of checkers by 10 million times"
++ Larger game, larger reduction.
Besides from 10^38 to 10^17 is 21 orders of magnitude.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@11068

"the implementation of solutions are specific to each game"
++ Yes, like for Chess prune 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? right away.

Rather, like the implementation of solutions (remotely resembling your non solution) is specific to FIDE basic rules chess, FIDE competitio rules chess, ICCF chess etc.

Allis' weak solution of Connect Four, the weak solution of Losing Chess, and even Checkers all used game knowledge. For Chess that is necessary even more.

All using proven knowledge to verify (as opposed to expedite) the solution, no mention of a big red telephone anywhere. 

"elimination of 27 orders of magnitude is larger than all of checkers by 10 million times"
++ Larger game, larger reduction.

Don't think you quite grasped what he said.

Besides from 10^38 to 10^17 is 21 orders of magnitude.

I think he was basing it on 4.8x10^44 which is appropriate for basic rules chess. With 10^38 you've already started your silly reductions. You already conceded 4.8x10^46 (still a vast underestimate) for FIDE competition rules chess at the start of the thread before immediately forgetting about it, so you should accept 29½ orders of magnitude at least for that and ICCF chess (though it's out itself by many orders of magnitude).

You gave no reasoning why you could ignore the triple repetition rule for versions other than FIDE basic rules, You failed to put any upper limit even on the number of positions in KRK under FIDE competition rules. We don't currently have even an ultra weak solution of all positions in that endgame, nor any proposal for producing one.

Elroch
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

the bit that tygxc misses is that he doesnt get to choose black's response.

by definition, the strategy steal must encompass ALL possible black responses.

The key is that you can run all positions past @tygxc himself, and he judges whether they are 100% winning. He can see this in a way that others can't (including conventional engines rated over 3500, which evaluate then as a material advantage much less than that where there is a forced mate, or similar strength top AIs which ascribe them a probability of winning less than 1.0) - he also has the unique capability to detect that when two players have had a run of draws, the next game between them will also be a draw, refuting common sense and quantitative assessments.

I am not sure how he achieves this supernatural insight, but he is psychologically certain of it despite all objective reasons not to be, so it must be ok.

tygxc

Here is an obituary for the 3 times ICCF World Champion Dronov,
who passed away during the ongoing ICCF WC Finals.
https://www.chess.com/blog/Marignon/alexander-dronov-1946-2023-three-times-world-correspondence-chess-champion 
It shows that in those 3 World Championship finals there were fewer and fewer decisive games.
'To win a contemporary correspondence chess game, you have to do the impossible:
prove that the 3600 Elo engine is wrong.'

Now they are at 106 draws out of 106 games.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

Here is an obituary for the 3 times ICCF World Champion Dronov,
who passed away during the ongoing ICCF WC Finals.
https://www.chess.com/blog/Marignon/alexander-dronov-1946-2023-three-times-world-correspondence-chess-champion 
It shows that in those 3 World Championship finals there were fewer and fewer decisive games.
'To win a contemporary correspondence chess game, you have to do the impossible:
prove that the 3600 Elo engine is wrong.'

This 3600 Elo engine?

Black to play and White to mate in 36
 

Easy peasy!

Now they are at 106 draws out of 106 games.

It practically always draws against itself from winning or drawn positions where it's out of its depth. It will do that already from positions where there are just five men on the board.

Just look back at all the examples I've given you where we can check its progress from the tablebases.

playerafar

This from tygxc just in the last few posts
"That leaves 10^34 positions, of which the square root i.e. 10^17 are relevant to weakly solve Chess."
Not only does tygxc's post prove what I was saying about his ridiculous square root claim - that he so claims - but again there's that 'weakly solve' assertion there - disproving Elroch's claim of 'irrelevancy'.
And O has no counter to being exposed. O is @Optimissed.
He just yells 'alt' and similiar - pathetically.
Earlier he tried to lie that he can physically take on three men - so many lies he tells. Does he expect anybody to believe them?
------------------------------------------------
And BC can't shut up anybody here and good thing.
He'll try though. Foolishly.
Am I 'insulted'? 'Annoyed'?
Such foollishnesses are to be expected from O and BC.
There's big differences between 'annoyed' and 'don't care' and 'not passive'.
There's hope for BC - he's probably very young with young male adult issues like TP and Silver and EE all appear to have. Not quite the same though.
If BC is in fact middle-aged - well then it does look kind of hopeless.
happy

Elroch

playerafar

In Elroch's commentary - perhaps the person in charge of the algorithm funding inhales too much car and smokestack exhaust and terminates that funding.

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@11068

"the implementation of solutions are specific to each game"
++ Yes, like for Chess prune 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? right away.

Rather, like the implementation of solutions (remotely resembling your non solution) is specific to FIDE basic rules chess, FIDE competitio rules chess, ICCF chess etc.

Allis' weak solution of Connect Four, the weak solution of Losing Chess, and even Checkers all used game knowledge. For Chess that is necessary even more.

All using proven knowledge to verify (as opposed to expedite) the solution, no mention of a big red telephone anywhere. 

"elimination of 27 orders of magnitude is larger than all of checkers by 10 million times"
++ Larger game, larger reduction.

Don't think you quite grasped what he said.

Besides from 10^38 to 10^17 is 21 orders of magnitude.

I think he was basing it on 4.8x10^44 which is appropriate for basic rules chess. With 10^38 you've already started your silly reductions. You already conceded 4.8x10^46 (still a vast underestimate) for FIDE competition rules chess at the start of the thread before immediately forgetting about it, so you should accept 29½ orders of magnitude at least for that and ICCF chess (though it's out itself by many orders of magnitude).

You gave no reasoning why you could ignore the triple repetition rule for versions other than FIDE basic rules, You failed to put any upper limit even on the number of positions in KRK under FIDE competition rules. We don't currently have even an ultra weak solution of all positions in that endgame, nor any proposal for producing one.

Isn't the musing about the repetition rule a red herring for solving chess (as opposed to playing an imperfect opponent)?

The reason is quite simple: if there is a forced win, there is a forced win without repetition. So consider a repetition of position to be a loss if you like (handily pruning forward analysis - there being no problem with the tablebase end) and seek a winning strategy. If there is none you can be 100% sure there is no winning strategy.

Having verified this for both sides, you can do the same but counting a repetition as a win. You are likely to find both sides will be able to achieve this, making the result a draw.

The problem, of course, is that this solution remains computationally intractable on account of its size.

playerafar

No comment there from Elroch about the ridiculousness of taking the square root - not a gigantic reduction when you're talking about small numbers to start with ...
but with big numbers like 10 to the 34th to start with it gets more and more ridiculous. Its like tygxc wants to 'extract' one position from each 100 million trillion positions and then go by that one.
that root is tygxc's 'magic carpet' to Nirvana-claims about 10 to the 17th.
He will get much attention.
Another 5000 posts thus coming up ...
But O likely to be the only jealous one. Foolishly jealous. As always.

MARattigan
mrhjornevik wrote:

@optimissed. Whats you argument agains cantor?

Answer came there none, but I would guess the real answer is that he has zero chance of understanding anything Cantor said.

MEGACHE3SE
Elroch wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

the bit that tygxc misses is that he doesnt get to choose black's response.

by definition, the strategy steal must encompass ALL possible black responses.

The key is that you can run all positions past @tygxc himself, and he judges whether they are 100% winning. He can see this in a way that others can't (including conventional engines rated over 3500, which evaluate then as a material advantage much less than that where there is a forced mate, or similar strength top AIs which ascribe them a probability of winning less than 1.0) - he also has the unique capability to detect that when two players have had a run of draws, the next game between them will also be a draw, refuting common sense and quantitative assessments.

I am not sure how he achieves this supernatural insight, but he is psychologically certain of it despite all objective reasons not to be, so it must be ok.

i mean his logic does depend on such evaluations