Does bullet take a toll on your calculation skills?

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shadow1414
Marcyful wrote:

I guess it works both ways

Not Exactly: Correspondence, Classical, And Rapid Help In All Time-Controls, As - By Calculating Different Variations - You Will Gain A Better Understanding Of What Makes "Good-Moves" In Chess, So You Will Be Able To Make Good-Moves Faster In Bullet; Blitz Helps In Blitz, As Blitz Is Too Fast To Help In Rapid, Correspondence, And Classical, And Too Slow To Help In Bullet; Bullet Helps In Bullet, As Bullet Is Too Fast To Help In Blitz, Rapid, Correspondence, And Classical. 

eric0022
shadow1414 wrote:
Marcyful wrote:

I guess it works both ways

Not Exactly: Correspondence, Classical, And Rapid Help In All Time-Controls, As - By Calculating Different Variations - You Will Gain A Better Understanding Of What Makes "Good-Moves" In Chess, So You Will Be Able To Make Good-Moves Faster In Bullet; Blitz Helps In Blitz, As Blitz Is Too Fast To Help In Rapid And Classical, And Too Slow To Help In Bullet; Bullet Helps In Bullet, As Bullet Is Too Fast To Help In Blitz, Rapid, Correspondence, And Classical. 

 

Not necessarily true, at least in my own experience.

 

Time trouble usually comes about as you attempt to play good moves in faster controls. Once that kicks in, errors start to enter the game under time pressure. An empire of good moves built would have been ruined just because of these errors. In general, players who play rapid alone are often worse than players who play a mix of both if their long-control ratings are comparable.

 

More often than not, this is what I noticed when people face time trouble. And I believe this is what leads to Marcyful starting to incorporate bullet games as part of routine training.

Ziryab

As someone with only about 50,000 bullet games finished, I can say that it rewards slop in a way that can make my calculation in slower OTB superficial. On the other hand, in moderation bullet can test instant comprehension of patterns.

I’m also terrible at bullet.

Vincidroid

I tried playing bullet, but it nearly killed my performance. I dodged a bullet right there. 

Ziryab
Optimissed wrote:

I just played three games of rapid, first time for six months. I should have easily won all three but in one, I drew owing to a mouse slip. I've been playing nothing but 5/0 blitz and there's no doubt that helped me. Rapid ratings are obviously highly inflated, judging by the low standard of the opposition. Blitz ratings between 1400 and 1600 seem to be deflated and a lot of people between those grades are much stronger than that. I think that with all my blitz games around 1600 recently I should be able to get up to 2100 rapid if I wanted. Blitz is very good practice for rapid. Bullet certainly isn't.

 

Put your rapid rating on the line in Arena and see if you can keep it above 1600. That’s what I’ve been doing the past eleven months. I was over 1900 when I started.

goldenbeer
5 move deep is too much of exaggeration. Sometimes some lines are forced and you can calculate quickly, but sometimes they aren’t and even depth 3 is almost impossible, even for world champion.
goldenbeer
@Ziryab, what is Arena?
Ziryab
goldenbeer wrote:
@Ziryab, what is Arena?

 

A tournament format. Usually set to last a set time like two hours, you play many opponents, getting paired as soon as another opponent is available. You get bonus points for streaks.

I usually pop in for a few games and then leave again, which is not among the advertised benefits. 

Marie-AnneLiz
Marcyful a écrit :

The other day I played like 20 bullet games in a row, which by itself is already stressful. What caught me as somewhat annoying is when I hopped on to Daily and my calculation skills feel like utter garbage. Normally, I was able to calculate up to 5 moves deep and analyze positions and figure out what to do in them decently. Now my brain can't even bother to calculate for even 1 move deep even when I have more than enough time. Should I just stop playing bullet altogether and just focus on my forte time control?

The part of the brain that is responsible  for logical thinking and planing is The frontal lobe.

The brain stem, which consists of the medulla (an enlarged portion of the upper spinal cord), controls the reflexes

Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
Marcyful a écrit :

The other day I played like 20 bullet games in a row, which by itself is already stressful. What caught me as somewhat annoying is when I hopped on to Daily and my calculation skills feel like utter garbage. Normally, I was able to calculate up to 5 moves deep and analyze positions and figure out what to do in them decently. Now my brain can't even bother to calculate for even 1 move deep even when I have more than enough time. Should I just stop playing bullet altogether and just focus on my forte time control?

The part of the brain that control reflex is the The cerebellum  and the one that is responsible  for logical thinking and planing is The frontal lobe.

Isn't quick thinking the same as logical thinking? Reflex is something totally different thats more in line with hand eye coordination and muscle memory.

 

No. The two kinds of thinking are very different, use different parts of our brain, and serve us best in contrasting situations.

See https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11468377-thinking-fast-and-slow

@RoaringPawn discussed this book’s relevance for chess in one of his blog posts.

 

Marie-AnneLiz

Very quick thinking is base more on intuition (experience and knowledge);but do you really think if you take 2 sec per move or do you start to think at +5 sec per move? and could you see all the board in 5 sec?

Depend if your an expert or master or a GM or a 1300 player...

At 1300 anyway you don't see much even if you think +10 sec.

 

Ziryab
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Very quick thinking is base more on intuition(experience and knowledge);but do you really think if you take 2 sec per move or do you start to think at 5 sec per move? and could you see all the board in 5 sec?

Depend if your a GM or a 1400 player...

 

 

In bullet you rely on memory and pattern recognition. There may be some superficial calculation. Stronger players remember more of relevance, apply it more appropriately, and know more patterns. Research suggests that they see the whole board, but in chunks.

This is illustration is from Alfred Binet’s study of expert chess players, published in 1894.

Binet’s early work has been further developed by Chase and Simon and others.

Ziryab
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Very quick thinking is base more on intuition(experience and knowledge);but do you really think if you take 2 sec per move or do you start to think at 5 sec per move? and could you see all the board in 5 sec?

Depend if your a GM or a 1400 player...

 

 

In bullet you rely on memory and pattern recognition. There may be some superficial calculation. Stronger players remember more of relevance, apply it more appropriately, and know more patterns. Research suggests that they see the whole board, but in chunks.

This is illustration is from Alfred Binet’s study of expert chess players, published in 1894.

 

Binet’s early work has been further developed by Chase and Simon and others.

Isn't it Fischer who said chess was all memory and preparation?  He felt the creative part was further down the list and not even important.  Again I'm not saying you don't have to practice slow games if you prefer bullet.   But I don't think it somehow going to make you forget everything else or be worse at slow games.  Unless as other have said ealier that you can stuck on and forget what time control you are playing out of habit.   but as I have said that can go both ways.    But as you said memory and pattern recognition play a huge role as it is.  If anything it should be keeping "those parts of your brain" sharp!

Just realized you were arguing this very point.  My apologies.

 

It’s all good.

I’ve played hyperbullet and many thousands of 1 0 games. There are several kinds of bullet players, who adopt different strategies. I sometimes try to play solid positional chess in bullet. It can be effective.

Knowing when to use premoves is also useful.

When your opponent’s clock is under five seconds, start sacking pieces with check. They will time out.

This doesn’t work in 2 1. 

Grayson1e4e6
Marcyful wrote:

The other day I played like 20 bullet games in a row, which by itself is already stressful. What caught me as somewhat annoying is when I hopped on to Daily and my calculation skills feel like utter garbage. Normally, I was able to calculate up to 5 moves deep and analyze positions and figure out what to do in them decently. Now my brain can't even bother to calculate for even 1 move deep even when I have more than enough time. Should I just stop playing bullet altogether and just focus on my forte time control?

Bullet doesn't hurt your calculation, it's just hard to switch from one time control to another.

Marie-AnneLiz
CooloutAC a écrit :
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Very quick thinking is base more on intuition(experience and knowledge);but do you really think if you take 2 sec per move or do you start to think at 5 sec per move? and could you see all the board in 5 sec?

Depend if your a GM or a 1400 player...

 

But don't we all have the same type of brains?   I mean the fact these GM's play nothing but bullet all day long online,  even Magnus.  Wouldn't that hurt their game according to this theory when they play blitz or classical?    And if its based on experience and knowledge are you saying you don't get any experience and knowledge playing bullet?   I mean sure we all can agree you will learn  strategies and tactics and so forth in slower games faster and more easily.   Even better are puzzles, books, videos and practice exercises.     But if Bullet is the main format you want to compete in,  wouldn't Bullet be the format to be playing most?   

Better players think differently from ordinary ones. Everything is clearer and openings, basic tactics and endgame skills aren't something they need to think about. They're obvious. Bullet would be a bit of fun, to relax. They can't learn from it except that they will notice ideas to try out. That's what it's good for.

well of course.  Its why they are pros and we are amateurs.  Bullet is way to hard for me personally I won't even play it lol.  But I wouldn't go as far as to say that playing it is going to make them worse at rapid.     I think what can make ;them worse player,  is by playing too many worse players lol.

One expert say that you cannot optimized both at the same time,if you optimize the part of the brain that control the reflex you automatically will not be able to optimized the one for deep thinking..it could be a matter of a maximum of brain cells that are available in the totality of the brain if that make sense?

I'll try to find the name of the expert that did that study a few years back.

Ziryab
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
CooloutAC a écrit :
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:

Very quick thinking is base more on intuition(experience and knowledge);but do you really think if you take 2 sec per move or do you start to think at 5 sec per move? and could you see all the board in 5 sec?

Depend if your a GM or a 1400 player...

 

But don't we all have the same type of brains?   I mean the fact these GM's play nothing but bullet all day long online,  even Magnus.  Wouldn't that hurt their game according to this theory when they play blitz or classical?    And if its based on experience and knowledge are you saying you don't get any experience and knowledge playing bullet?   I mean sure we all can agree you will learn  strategies and tactics and so forth in slower games faster and more easily.   Even better are puzzles, books, videos and practice exercises.     But if Bullet is the main format you want to compete in,  wouldn't Bullet be the format to be playing most?   

Better players think differently from ordinary ones. Everything is clearer and openings, basic tactics and endgame skills aren't something they need to think about. They're obvious. Bullet would be a bit of fun, to relax. They can't learn from it except that they will notice ideas to try out. That's what it's good for.

well of course.  Its why they are pros and we are amateurs.  Bullet is way to hard for me personally I won't even play it lol.  But I wouldn't go as far as to say that playing it is going to make them worse at rapid.     I think what can make ;them worse player,  is by playing too many worse players lol.

Some experts say that you cannot optimized both at the same time,if you optimize the brain that control the reflex you automatically will not be able to optimized the one for deep thinking..it could be a matter of a maximum of brain cells that are available in the totality if that make sense?

I'll try to find the name of the expert that did that study a few years back.

 

Look at post #39. That may be the expert you are thinking of.

Marie-AnneLiz

The dopamine release that comes from gaming is so powerful, say researchers, it can almost shut the prefrontal regions down. 

Practicing anything repetitively physically changes the brain. With time and effort, you get better at the specific task you're practicing

Those repetitive actions and thoughts stimulate connections between brain cells, creating neural pathways between different parts of your brain. The more you practice a certain activity, the stronger that neural pathway becomes. That's the structural basis of learning.

"Use it or lose it" applies not just to muscles in the body, but also the brain. Neural pathways that are not used eventually get pruned.

 

 

 

 

DreamscapeHorizons

Welp... we all see what it did to the former world #2 and his age suggests he should definitely still be in his prime. 

AussieMatey

Depends where the bullet gets ya. happy.png

Marie-AnneLiz

We are not talking about GM or masters here....

But for the guy that started this topic and if he play dozens of blitz in a row and if that can affect his slower games.

Or to the one who only play blitz games online and that start to complain on this forum that despite having read many books for years and having played thousands of blitz games and asking why they are still only at 1400 here....

 

Or the broader question...if you play 50%/50%blitz and slow games, is it better to improve your slow games to play 25%/75% or 10%/90%....

Most expert/coach that i read say that blitz is for fun....and the slower you play if you analyze your games to see your mistakes and IF you look and play carefully each move that is the best way to get better( of course  books and video (on tactics and strategy and end game and opening and a coach on top is a even better ......very few do that and it's not the only way...playing a lot against better players is another option.