HOW DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS A CHEATER?

I have had this debate with friends in here many times because i dont neccessarily believe everyone on the cheaters list is a cheater. My experience with chess is certain family members being so obsessed with it. They live eat and breathe it, study it to no end.

When you learn chess  to that degree that it borderlines obsession ( actually might go beyond it) isn't it fair to say their knowledge would be above and beyond what is considered normal anyway.

    I am still a beginner and my chatterbox mouth definitely has a negative effect on my game as does the fact that i am almost always multitaking when making moves.

   That being said. Im ignorant when it comes to how it is decided that someone is a cheater in here and quite frankly very sceptical of the label knowing that some so called "cheaters" were allowed back in. So the question is : What makes you so sure they are cheating? Wheres the proof? I know certain people who obsessively study chess to the point where they know most moves like the back of their hand. They live eat and breath studying it. i dont believe types like that are cheaters. They just know the game in way others dont care to..

If they showed the exact method, it would make it easier for cheaters to work around it (there is no perfect method).  Which also means you're justified in being suspicious of whether or not they cheated... there have been cases where someone was banned incorrectly!

But it's not at all advantageous for chess.com to error on the side of false positives.  Chess.com is a business first.

One method is statistical analysis.  There are very reliable samples e.g. world championship matches from the years when chess playing computers didn't exist!  Surprisingly, the best humans average a certain match-rate with an engine's top 3 moves.  Meaning even if they didn't play the computer's #1 choice, they may have played what the engine thought was the 2nd or 3rd best.

So whenever a human, over the course of many games, achieves a much higher percentage (not just a little higher, and not just 1 game where it would be somewhat easy to match 100% in some cases) then it's statistically very very very very (etc) likely that the person cheated using an engine.

As for knowing a lot about chess, consider also that engines don't necessarily find the best moves.  Matching an engine is evidence of using an engine!  Carlsen described playing an engine as "playing an idiot, but the idiot always wins."  This same obvious style of computer play is what condemned the cheater B.Ivonov in the minds of many players (until statistics and a mountain of circumstantial evidence got him banned by his national federation).

So in short, to appear on that list, either they typed your name in wrong (oops!) or you were one of the very blatant cheaters.

i hear you but what if they mostly play computers? wouldnt that change it up a bit?

Naa, he's absolutely right, and the style reflects the method.  And that method is not something you can emulate.  A computer style happens when you choose your moves based on calculation of millions of positions.  This style is evident when e.g. moves that are logical, safe, consistent, and even easy are eschewed for illogical, doubled-edged, difficult moves that are nonetheless strong.

Yeah, that's why I say averaged out over many games.  As you say it's possible to have a game match 100% (and some of the best players have had close to it even against strong opposition).

But lets say 20 games 40 moves long against "peers" (+- 200 points).  There's just no way you're going to play like a computer...

BTW nice 2400 rating lol.  You need to apply for you chess.com IM title

your right i hadnt thought about that. you can tell the type of player by the moves they make.

You guys are giving me a better understanding of the process. Thanks..

The site tell us that engine match up is only one factor in deciding if someone cheats.  Ive lost ' friends ' here to it , as everyone else probably has. 

Ive said elsewhere that Ive never had an engine, and never will. For some players , at whatever level the temptation to say Ill check with it 'just this once', soon becomes ' one more time' and so on.

Some of course resist this.... however as we see many do not.

What my major personal concern is there is no way whatsoever of knowing whether EACH player banned by chess.com as a cheater is indeed one. 

What chess.com requires of us is therefore an act of faith about their own infallilibity.

I assume that anybody that beats me is cheating.  I bet some of them are even playing a line that they read in a book a long time ago.  See, they are not even playing their own opening line.  What would Mr. Lopez think that people are copying his moves.

the best way is asking him decently. 

"cheater here are the weakest player at the chess engine arena"

Or just the common knowledge that no one is perfect.

You are absolutely right monique, i know plenty  in here labeled cheaters that i know werent. Also, i know a few that were actually let back in after being put on that list, so when that happens it takes the credibility of the list awaay as far as im concerned. Whats the point of the list when you quietly let some cheaters back in.

                  I think the actual list was taken down a while back

Played a guy today (in 2-1) who was rated 1400 for Bullet and over 2000 in Blitz.

Say what you like about connection speed and playing style etc but that is a big gap in chess strength.. 

yes it was.. but now they have a cheaters icon next to the persons name in old games.

               OH!  look at that;  learn something new every day here!  How much are they??   Are they, (wait for it),  LEGO icons??     Maybe they should have all cheaters use the skull & crossbones avatar. 

      "How do you really catch someone who is a cheater"      If your opponent is wearing a court ordered ankle braclet, and you've seen his picture at the Post Office,  I would just resign the game and say, "No thanks".

Hi,

People who study chess and become good players will move up the rankings, so they are not cheating. Grandmasters study 8 hours a day, play 2 hours,thats a 10 hour day, thats how they get to that level.

When we make a move, our feelings and emotions influence our moves, not so when useing a computer.

People who use computers to workout their moves for them, usually play a perfect game, no mistakes and no blunders.

Their is another form of cheating too, you lose a lot of rating points, so that you can enter lower rated tournaments, there by knowing you will win and get more overall leaderboard points.

Regards,Ian.

I suppose if a player has a turn-based rating of 2050 and a Blitz rating of 1250 that might suggest cheating.  But what cheaters do not understand is, they are cheating themselves because they do not know their true strength.  The other point is, unless you are a live tournament rated master, there are always going to be better players and the wise decision is just to enjoy playing the game at whatever level you are.  It is the inner game that matters and when you learn something by yourself, there is a satisfaction not fournd from a computer.