Initiative & Bishop Pins

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ClavierCavalier

I was thinking about the common early bishop pins on knights and wondered if playing a3 and h3 should wait?  Does this transfer the initiative since white reacts to black, or does it stay with white since it forces the bishop to move or an exchange?

If black moves the rook's pawn and white retreats, does this give black the initiative, such as in Ruy Lopez?

In the Ruy Lopez, can Bb5 really be called a pin on the knight?  Isn't it more of a threatened pin, and therefore could be called a pin on the queen's pawn?

blueemu

It's called a half-pin, since one of the two men (Knight or Queen's Pawn) is pinned against the King. I would only move the Rook's Pawn if it gains me something... although that "something" might just be the future option of kicking the Bishop again with the Knight's Pawn.

h3/h6 or a3/a6 should not be an automatic reflex.

ivandh

I agree with the bird. Pins are annoying, but not worth two tempi in the opening. A lot of players automatically push their rook pawns in every game while I develop pieces. It's a little off-putting because I like games with tension and dynamism, plus it puts me at an advantage, which is something I am not familiar or comfortable with...

As far as these diagrams- they deal with very early points in the game where there aren't enough pieces developed to say that one person or another has initiative. You can talk about tempi, which is a relative comparison of how useful is each move in terms of development, but initiative is something that requires a sustained series of forceful moves.

In the second diagram I would like to point out that it is somewhat ridiculous to castle on the third move and white's queenside development suffers as a result; the defensive c3 also inhibits white's development. I would hardly say that white's position is due to having his bishop kicked.

notmtwain

It's d3 in the first one Scotch Game that gives the initiative over to black. Look at a database like www.chesslive.de and you can see that d3 is a bad move, with only a 37% score for white. (That means a 63% score for black.) With h3 and a3, things get even worse.

And no, the bishop retreat doesn't give over the initiative in the Ruy Lopez.  You're right it's not a pin when white plays Bb5 but it does prepare castling and allows white to open up the dark squared bishop later.

These are tough questions that have been answered very well in classic chess books.  

Berder

After a3 and the bishop moves back, it's your turn again.  The difference between the previous turn and this turn:  the pawn is advanced and the bishop is moved back.

The bishop moving back often doesn't matter very much - not much of an advantage or disadvantage for either player (unless you are threatening to trap it).  Maybe it's a slight advantage for your opponent because he can later put the bishop on a more secure square (b6).

The pawn advancing might or might not matter.  If you are preparing a big pawn push with b4 then yes that's a bonus for you and you gained a tempo.  But, if it's on the kingside instead, then the pawn advance weakened your kingside (a disadvantage).

ClavierCavalier
ivandh wrote:

I agree with the bird. Pins are annoying, but not worth two tempi in the opening. A lot of players automatically push their rook pawns in every game while I develop pieces. It's a little off-putting because I like games with tension and dynamism, plus it puts me at an advantage, which is something I am not familiar or comfortable with...

As far as these diagrams- they deal with very early points in the game where there aren't enough pieces developed to say that one person or another has initiative. You can talk about tempi, which is a relative comparison of how useful is each move in terms of development, but initiative is something that requires a sustained series of forceful moves.

In the second diagram I would like to point out that it is somewhat ridiculous to castle on the third move and white's queenside development suffers as a result; the defensive c3 also inhibits white's development. I would hardly say that white's position is due to having his bishop kicked.

The second diagram?  That's the mainline of the Ruy Lopez.  I'm sure all of those GM's who have developped this line over the years know what they're doing.

ClavierCavalier
notmtwain wrote:

It's d3 in the first one Scotch Game that gives the initiative over to black. Look at a database like www.chesslive.de and you can see that d3 is a bad move, with only a 37% score for white. (That means a 63% score for black.) With h3 and a3, things get even worse.

And no, the bishop retreat doesn't give over the initiative in the Ruy Lopez.  You're right it's not a pin when white plays Bb5 but it does prepare castling and allows white to open up the dark squared bishop later.

These are tough questions that have been answered very well in classic chess books.  

I wouldn't really call my first diagram an opening since I just sat up the pieces in a way that gives black an easy pin on the knight on c3.

notmtwain
ClavierCavalier wrote:
notmtwain wrote:

It's d3 in the first one Scotch Game that gives the initiative over to black. Look at a database like www.chesslive.de and you can see that d3 is a bad move, with only a 37% score for white. (That means a 63% score for black.) With h3 and a3, things get even worse.

And no, the bishop retreat doesn't give over the initiative in the Ruy Lopez.  You're right it's not a pin when white plays Bb5 but it does prepare castling and allows white to open up the dark squared bishop later.

These are tough questions that have been answered very well in classic chess books.  

I wouldn't really call my first diagram an opening since I just sat up the pieces in a way that gives black an easy pin on the knight on c3.

It's a real opening. If you go to the database, there are 1001 real examples of how white tried to fight off Bb4 after playing 4. d3 in real games.   You can look at the games with a3. You can look at the games with Bd2.  You can look at the 11 other moves tried.

After you have looked at 1001 examples, you will know the answer to your question.

It's like practicing scales. Play all 1001 games and you will find all kinds of places where that knowledge is useful.

ivandh
ClavierCavalier wrote:
ivandh wrote:

...

The second diagram?  That's the mainline of the Ruy Lopez.  I'm sure all of those GM's who have developped this line over the years know what they're doing.

All the same, white's qside is looking pretty backward while the king is tucked away unnecessarily. Maybe at GM level there is a good reason for this, but I'm not playing at Tata Steel this year. At any rate you should provide an example where a lack of development or change of initiative is due to the topic you are discussing.

ClavierCavalier
notmtwain wrote:
ClavierCavalier wrote:
notmtwain wrote:

It's d3 in the first one Scotch Game that gives the initiative over to black. Look at a database like www.chesslive.de and you can see that d3 is a bad move, with only a 37% score for white. (That means a 63% score for black.) With h3 and a3, things get even worse.

And no, the bishop retreat doesn't give over the initiative in the Ruy Lopez.  You're right it's not a pin when white plays Bb5 but it does prepare castling and allows white to open up the dark squared bishop later.

These are tough questions that have been answered very well in classic chess books.  

I wouldn't really call my first diagram an opening since I just sat up the pieces in a way that gives black an easy pin on the knight on c3.

It's a real opening. If you go to the database, there are 1001 real examples of how white tried to fight off Bb4 after playing 4. d3 in real games.   You can look at the games with a3. You can look at the games with Bd2.  You can look at the 11 other moves tried.

After you have looked at 1001 examples, you will know the answer to your question.

It's like practicing scales. Play all 1001 games and you will find all kinds of places where that knowledge is useful.

Scales!  E-flat harmonic minor is the most awkard thing in the universe!

ClavierCavalier
ivandh wrote:
ClavierCavalier wrote:
ivandh wrote:

...

The second diagram?  That's the mainline of the Ruy Lopez.  I'm sure all of those GM's who have developped this line over the years know what they're doing.

All the same, white's qside is looking pretty backward while the king is tucked away unnecessarily. Maybe at GM level there is a good reason for this, but I'm not playing at Tata Steel this year. At any rate you should provide an example where a lack of development or change of initiative is due to the topic you are discussing.

Well, in that Ruy Lopez example, black has 3 minor pieces and 4 pawns developed, castled, and has an and an open diagonal for their queen's bishop where as white has 2 minor pieces and 2 pawns, a stuck queen side, and has castled and moved their rook.  It looks like this is a perfect example.

blueemu
ClavierCavalier wrote:

Well, in that Ruy Lopez example, black has 3 minor pieces and 4 pawns developed, castled, and has an and an open diagonal for their queen's bishop where as white has 2 minor pieces and 2 pawns, a stuck queen side, and has castled and moved their rook.  It looks like this is a perfect example.

Development is only part of the story. Better development is increasingly important the more open the position is. Conversely, better development is almost a non-issue in closed positions. The ... d6 line in the Lopez is quite closed, so rapid development is reduced in importance and other factors take on more importance.

For instance, Black's Q-side Pawns are rather loose, and are exposed to a later a4 thrust. White will have an easy time forming a center duo with d4, while Black will have a much more difficult job getting in d5 unless he is willing to gambit his e-Pawn. Neither dark-squared Bishop has an obvious good square to move to, so White can quite reasonably leave his on c1 for now, and play d4, Nbd2 and Nf1 to re-deploy his Knight towards Black's sensitive light squares in the center. A time-consuming manoever... but in a semi-closed position time is rarely a critical resource.

ivandh

You missed the operative words there: "you should provide an example where a lack of development or change of initiative is due to the topic you are discussing." In both examples, factors which have nothing to do with your topic are leading to the lack of development.

ClavierCavalier
ClavierCavalier wrote:

If black moves the rook's pawn and white retreats, does this give black the initiative, such as in Ruy Lopez?

AndyClifton
ivandh wrote:

I agree with the bird.

My God, that thing is a bird!

ivandh
Estragon wrote:
..

None of which has anything to do with pins.

Exactly my point.

AndyClifton wrote:
ivandh wrote:

I agree with the bird.

My God, that thing is a bird!

Come to think of it I'll bet it has to do with woodie's balloons.

Grumly06

Like the others, I think you should not be overly cautious about pins in this type of positions. Pins are annoying but not deadly.

In the first position, why not developing your own Bishop to g5 and try to find a good square for your other Bishop.

If you want to learn the basics of pins and solve a few puzzles, you can see my blog post here: http://chesstrainerapp.blogspot.fr/2014/01/the-pin.html