Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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DiogenesDue
playerafar wrote:

I don't think of it as a 'camp'. Not on this one.
'luck in chess' depends on how each of the three words is defined - or applied.
The mathematical side of chess 'has no luck' because math in and of itself can't have luck because its too objective for that. Numbers and squares and pieces just don't Care!
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In debates and arguments and other contests - people line up.
Often in two sides.
Others spectate and others ignore.
Regarding 'agreement' one would find most people agree on most points.
For example - that the world is round. 
2% of people don't agree. The flat-earthers.
But its so often not agreement that counts.
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Its disagreement. And how disagreement is handled.
And what the disagreement is.
What and how.
Six questions: Who what where when why how. 
In this particular case it seems that 'how' disagreement proceeds - eclipses the other five.
That's often the case.

My point, and it's a short one, is that characterizing somebody as having changed to Y makes an assumption about what they were before (X) that serves a narrative and does not serve X.

Let's also put that narrative behind, and move on.

space-monkey-mafia
GlennBk wrote:

You reach out an make a pawn move because you don't know just what to do. Many moves later that particular pawn proves invaluble. It could not have been foreseen. All the time we are taking advantage of luck from positions we could never have forseen.

Who can tell what the position will be in ten moves time. Answer nobody.

Chess is just like life you attempt to steer things for the best but the future is unknown. If the future was known then there would be no point in having any tournaments.

The better players merely guide the thing as best they can and avoid unbalance.

well put! i couldn’t agree more!

AGC-Gambit_YT
Optimized wasn’t muted tho
mpaetz

You think he really deleted all his posts and somehow managed to put them back into old pages when he decided to return?

DiogenesDue
ChessAGC_YT wrote:
Optimized wasn’t muted tho

Yes, he was, and has been many times.

As was ibrust, not sure of his history.

The username is "opti" (as in something optimal), plus "missed". Easy to remember. Perhaps you were looking up the wrong account.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
ChessAGC_YT wrote:
Optimized wasn’t muted tho

Yes, he was, and has been many times.

As was ibrust, not sure of his history.

The username is "opti" (as in something optimal), plus "missed". Easy to remember. Perhaps you were looking up the wrong account.

Dio correct as usual.
'missed'.
Lol.

playerafar
mpaetz wrote:

You think he really deleted all his posts and somehow managed to put them back into old pages when he decided to return?

Lol!
AGC doesn't know how muting works.
Shouldn't say 'wasn't' while not knowing how it works.
Better to ask so as to find out.

Hyper-N0va
No
HunterofAK
Hi
OctopusOnSteroids
space-monkey-mafia wrote:
GlennBk wrote:

You reach out an make a pawn move because you don't know just what to do. Many moves later that particular pawn proves invaluble. It could not have been foreseen. All the time we are taking advantage of luck from positions we could never have forseen.

Who can tell what the position will be in ten moves time. Answer nobody.

Chess is just like life you attempt to steer things for the best but the future is unknown. If the future was known then there would be no point in having any tournaments.

The better players merely guide the thing as best they can and avoid unbalance.

well put! i couldn’t agree more!

In life you don't have every variable right in front of you. Precisely why there is no luck in chess.

We make every move ourselves and every benefit we are able to get is a result of skill.

AGC-Gambit_YT
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
space-monkey-mafia wrote:
GlennBk wrote:

You reach out an make a pawn move because you don't know just what to do. Many moves later that particular pawn proves invaluble. It could not have been foreseen. All the time we are taking advantage of luck from positions we could never have forseen.

Who can tell what the position will be in ten moves time. Answer nobody.

Chess is just like life you attempt to steer things for the best but the future is unknown. If the future was known then there would be no point in having any tournaments.

The better players merely guide the thing as best they can and avoid unbalance.

well put! i couldn’t agree more!

In life you don't have every variable right in front of you. Precisely why there is no luck in chess.

We make every move ourselves and every benefit we are able to get is a result of skill.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

BigChessplayer665
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
space-monkey-mafia wrote:
GlennBk wrote:

You reach out an make a pawn move because you don't know just what to do. Many moves later that particular pawn proves invaluble. It could not have been foreseen. All the time we are taking advantage of luck from positions we could never have forseen.

Who can tell what the position will be in ten moves time. Answer nobody.

Chess is just like life you attempt to steer things for the best but the future is unknown. If the future was known then there would be no point in having any tournaments.

The better players merely guide the thing as best they can and avoid unbalance.

well put! i couldn’t agree more!

In life you don't have every variable right in front of you. Precisely why there is no luck in chess.

We make every move ourselves and every benefit we are able to get is a result of skill.

not really its alot of it but not all of it

OctopusOnSteroids

You're going to need something more in your argument, BigChessplayer. Chess is a game of full information. That actually implies all of it.

AGC-Gambit_YT

information is still not luck

BigChessplayer665
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

You're going to need something more in your argument, BigChessplayer. Chess is a game of full information. That actually implies all of it.

you could use the same argument for alot of strategy game :/ maybe the game itself doesn't involve luck theoretically but there's still other factors (example mood ) but i don't really feel like going into detail but usually beginners have to get luckier to win more games unless they get better . a better player doesn't need to get lucky to win a game as much of the time but a better player also knows how to make easier positions and get luckier typically you can't possibly know everything all the time in chess so unless you have 100% knowledge of the game sure your not lucky or if its something like stockfish since its just chess there isn't anything like emotions involved so there isn't any outside factors but for people sure they get lucky sometimes

playerafar
Optimissed wrote:
playerafar wrote:

Optimissed and I agree on something??
Shocker??
Lol! Hahahah.
We are in agreement on many points.
But its when we are in disagreement that he ....
People handle disagreement in different ways. Or mishandle it.
---------------------------------
I've been reading about a progression of mathematicians who were pioneers in Set Theory and Game theory with at least one of them (Ernst Zermelo) with a strong interest in chess.
With him even using chess in his work.
The progression started with Cantor.
And there was Vilfredo Pareto.
Included Bertrand Russell.
And eventually John Nash. Nash Equilibrium.
A movie made about him with Russell Crowe.
Striking parallels between Pareto and Nash!
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But did any of these great men get into contemplating a possibility of 'no luck' in chess?
I don't know.
But there's a strong possibility they didn't. Or to a very small degree.
Why not? Because its Too Obvious there is luck in chess and other games.
So attention to same would have had Rotten Return on Investment!
They may as well have well have invested in a possibility there's no ice in Greenland.
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Would great mathematicians have often considered contrasts between design and determination and fate and fatalism and chance and luck and randomness?
Sure. And a lot of people get into that.
Its part of everyday life. People know it. However they might handle it.

I agree with this too.

I think there are varieties of great mathematicians and some are more concerned with the workings of chance than others are. Some of the subset, in turn, understand that "luck" is, effectively, a subjective view of the outcomes of chance.

Koshmot made some good arguments for the existence of luck in chess, which were based on the existence of imperfections in our analysis, which are absolutely evident. However, there has been a tendency to downplay the existence of chance events external to the game itself but which impinge on the results. In my view, any chance event, external to the game itself but which alters a result, should add to the consensus that luck exists in chess. As playerafar mentions, it's obvious that it does.

I actually don't think our newfound agreement is all that amazing, since I think I understand the reasons why we are in agreement. Nevertheless, I should like to mention that I see it as a very healthy and happy departure from what had become a somewhat irritating situation.

But luck also exists 'internal to the game too'.
One could try to 'downplay' both internal and external factors.
Or try to argue as to what is 'internal' and meaning of internal.
The point: chess as mathematical construct of rules can have no luck in it because rules don't care.
Next point: Would be to try to contrast 'element of chance in the playing out of rules'.
Could that exist? Yes. And does.
If two computers play out a game to a win or to a draw - the precise moves played and the times taken on each move are variables.
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Some would say 'No. The computers are not subject to any element of chance.'
I say they are. And there will be 'distributions' of incidence of varous sequences of moves.
Do the computers both know at the beginning what the entire game will look like?
No. Nor will they know how much time taken for each move.
There's 'chance' there.
Is there 'luck'? Well the computers don't care.
But their programmers and operators might. Or do.
So the answer is yes. There's luck there.
Point: the game isn't solved.
If it was - then there would be an argument that there's neither luck nor what luck is a subset of - chance.
But it isn't. Isn't solved.

AGC-Gambit_YT

Guys stop writing essays on how to correct each other, it's not that deep ngl.

BigChessplayer665

bro i look so sus rn i just had a massive losing streak now i have 8 wins in a row i look like one of those people that do you know what after a massive losing streak sad.png i just got lucky tho

AGC-Gambit_YT

thats crazy, I lost 10 in a row too, and I won 4 in a row, after. It happens! Low rated players are easy, we know you aren't cheating!

BigChessplayer665

you mildly ruined the joke