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Avatar of Mozeg
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
All that time spent on those tactics where we evaluate complex positions to win a piece may not be worthwhile since the opportunity seems to come up so infrequently, even at the 1500 level.

Well, if "the 1500 level" means both players willingly trade most of their pieces off as soon as possible, then yes, it's not going to come up at the 1500 level, or any level for that matter.

But every one of those exchanges is what stockfish would have done in that position. Try exchanging pieces with stockfish and see what happens.

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
tactics seem to be a smaller part of the game as u move up the rating scale 

 

Even at a GM level, the ability to find short tactical sequences of just 2 or 3 moves is very important. Not always on the board, also in future positions... in other words finding a 2 move combination that exists 5 moves deep that refutes (or validates) your strategic idea.

I think it was Botvinnik who said after a tournament that he needed to work on seeing short combinations.

Right but part of the game is to make sure they don't happen and even 1500 players are pretty good at that, at least when they are matched with players at a similar level.

I hear you. When I was 1600 my plan was to just wait for a mistake (cherub tells a similar story). So when I faced other 1500 and 1600s, the games at most seemed to have 1 tactical mistake. All the time I was getting equal endgames where neither of us had blundered anything.

Right now I'm below 2000, but when I was 2000 vs other 2000 opponents, if you look at my games, there missed tactical opportunities all the time, for both players.

Avatar of NeilBerm
Mozeg wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:

 

 

That is the score graph from the lost game, using Stockfish to a depth of about 20 ply. While I haven't looked at the game very deeply, I'm sure there are likely some of those moves, with the larger score changes, that were tactical in nature (by one side or the other) and that includes the loss of pawns (which are still tactical). 


While there certainly are strings of moves where he played good moves, there are plenty where he didn't play the best and either provided a tactical or positional benefit to his opponent. There are potentially some of the moves in the graph that might not be as bad with deeper analysis (from en engine perspective) but there are a few places where the evaluation jumped significantly.

I think this supports my point. Even at lower level long time control games they are more often than not decided by a series of weaker moves or inaccuracies rather than tactical blunders that win a piece or an exchange. All that time spent on those tactics where we evaluate complex positions to win a piece may not be worthwhile since the opportunity seems to come up so infrequently, even at the 1500 level.

It is different depending on the playing style but almost all of my games, either blitz or longer, are decided in the middlegame due to tactics. If your son has a talent for tactics then he needs to be more aggressive and try for more complicated positions. Simplified games or those with a lot of maneuvering won't provide the same opportunities for him to beat his opponent tactically.

Avatar of NeilBerm

It isn't about whether the move is good or bad for Stockfish. The evaluation of the move should concern whether or not it is better for the player during the game. In a game where one player is better tactically, more complicated positions should be in that players favor. Stockfish would give an evaluation with the assumption that it was playing a game against itself.

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
All that time spent on those tactics where we evaluate complex positions to win a piece may not be worthwhile since the opportunity seems to come up so infrequently, even at the 1500 level.

Well, if "the 1500 level" means both players willingly trade most of their pieces off as soon as possible, then yes, it's not going to come up at the 1500 level, or any level for that matter.

But every one of those exchanges is what stockfish would have done in that position. Try exchanging pieces with stockfish and see what happens.



Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

Chin of Quinn is more patient than I am... 

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn

Great video by the way. It's good advice for serious games of course, but just wanted to mention following that idea is probably the #1 thing I do to win blitz games against lower rated player... don't capture unless it doesn't something good for me. And if I'm not sure? Error on the side of not capturing. Almost all the time they will improve my position for me, or damage their own, by initiating a capture.

Avatar of Mozeg
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

Avatar of dylana64
872, but I think I'm more of about 925-950 playing strength.
Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

My criticism above was that "when both players are willing to trade . . ." 

I give a comment on 2 black moves and 2 white moves that offer trades when it is not a good move.

Particularly black's first offer which involved 2 inaccurate moves in a row (moves 11 and 12). Also move 16 was strange and passive.

Of course not every move is an engine move at that level, but you were defending criticism by saying the engine agreed with these moves. I'm using the engine to renew the criticism that the play was passive and that's why it might seem like tactics don't matter to you.

Avatar of Mozeg
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

My criticism above was that "when both players are willing to trade . . ." 

I give a comment on 2 black moves and 2 white moves that offer trades when it is not a good move.

Particularly black's first offer which involved 2 inaccurate moves in a row (moves 11 and 12). Also move 16 was strange and passive.

Of course not every move is an engine move at that level, but you were defending criticism by saying the engine agreed with these moves. I'm using the engine to renew the criticism that the play was passive and that's why it might seem like tactics don't matter to you.

The criticism U made was that he plays to exchange his active pieces. My response was that every exchange he made was a best engine move. Does your analysis agree with me? Where it doesn't can u point it out to me? Whether other moves were or were not the best is not the issue. 

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

Read what you wrote - the fact that your son exchanged pieces to avoid losing material has ZERO to do with the fact that he plays to OFFER (and execute, when possible) exchanges that don't necessarily favor him in positions where no immediate tactics are present.

 

If my opponent puts his/her queen right next to my queen, threatening to chop it off for free, and I can't move anywhere with my queen, obviously I'm going to have to capture.

This has nothing to do with purposefully arranging exchanges when you are active.

Avatar of Mozeg
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

My criticism above was that "when both players are willing to trade . . ." 

I give a comment on 2 black moves and 2 white moves that offer trades when it is not a good move.

Particularly black's first offer which involved 2 inaccurate moves in a row (moves 11 and 12). Also move 16 was strange and passive.

Of course not every move is an engine move at that level, but you were defending criticism by saying the engine agreed with these moves. I'm using the engine to renew the criticism that the play was passive and that's why it might seem like tactics don't matter to you.

tge main point though is that even among low ranked  opponents there is not infrequently no forced tactical opportunities

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

One thing is very evident - if your son continues to play in this manner, the results will remain similar. We're just giving a practical suggestion for improvement. If you'd rather argue, then I'll just declare you the winner. 

@the_chin_of_quinn everything that needs to be said has been said, I'd say.

Avatar of universityofpawns

Mine was 1647 but lapsed back in 2015....think it may be just slightly better now because back then I did not study at all, just played a lot....now I study just a little, but still just a game to me....work and family are more important...

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

My criticism above was that "when both players are willing to trade . . ." 

I give a comment on 2 black moves and 2 white moves that offer trades when it is not a good move.

Particularly black's first offer which involved 2 inaccurate moves in a row (moves 11 and 12). Also move 16 was strange and passive.

Of course not every move is an engine move at that level, but you were defending criticism by saying the engine agreed with these moves. I'm using the engine to renew the criticism that the play was passive and that's why it might seem like tactics don't matter to you.

The criticism U made was that he plays to exchange his active pieces. My response was that every exchange he made was a best engine move. Does your analysis agree with me? Where it doesn't can u point it out to me? Whether other moves were or were not the best is not the issue. 

That was Cherub's criticism (which I agreed with when I thought he was white in that french game).

But in the Sicilian game, I wouldn't need an engine to tell me each of those exchanges were bad.

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Mozeg wrote:
 

the main point though is that even among low ranked  opponents there is not infrequently no forced tactical opportunities

That's fine, but if these games are to support the idea that tactics aren't important (or are somehow less important) at the 1500 level then you're extremely incorrect. The Sicilian game, where he landed in a bad position I assume without you or him knowing why, when, or what went wrong, can be avoided. But when this sort of play is avoided the complexity of the game will increase, leading to more tactics.

And again, this is an important point, not all tactics are some simple oversight. You need to be able to calculate tactics when trying to validate (or refute) your (or your opponent's) strategic ideas. Or after you get a winning position and need to convert.

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@the_chin_of_quinn everything that needs to be said has been said, I'd say.

Well ok, I guess I should stop tongue.png Some players would rather be right and continue what they've always done than hear advice.

Of course it IS important to learn something about all areas of the game. Openings, endgames, strategy, tactics, attack, defense, etc. So if the kid focuses on some other area and learns more about that, that's great... but the idea that tactics aren't important anymore at 1500 is... hard to overstate how absurd that is.

Avatar of Mozeg
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

Oh, I guess you mean the french exchange game.

 

  1. My son played black here not white. Looks like u r analyzing for white. My Analysis run through chess-db has every exchange for black as the top engine move. In any case bear in mind this is a 1450 playing 1380 so obviously every move is not an engine move.

 

My criticism above was that "when both players are willing to trade . . ." 

I give a comment on 2 black moves and 2 white moves that offer trades when it is not a good move.

Particularly black's first offer which involved 2 inaccurate moves in a row (moves 11 and 12). Also move 16 was strange and passive.

Of course not every move is an engine move at that level, but you were defending criticism by saying the engine agreed with these moves. I'm using the engine to renew the criticism that the play was passive and that's why it might seem like tactics don't matter to you.

The criticism U made was that he plays to exchange his active pieces. My response was that every exchange he made was a best engine move. Does your analysis agree with me? Where it doesn't can u point it out to me? Whether other moves were or were not the best is not the issue. 

That was Cherub's criticism (which I agreed with when I thought he was white in that french game).

But in the Sicilian game, I wouldn't need an engine to tell me each of those exchanges were bad.

Even those exchanges in the Sicilian game for the most part were appropriate, at least according to the engine, I suspect in order to prevent his already losing position from getting worse. A pair of GM's who reviewed the game at the tournament felt that the weaknesses he allowed at c3 and e3 from the advanced d pawn was the main problem. The more unsound final moves were hail mary attempts at salvaging a lost game.  That game was from the summer at which time he was around 1200.

U may have hit the nail on the head though. He really is scared of making a mistake and this seems to be getting worse.