Sportsmanship and the Clock

Two scenarios:

1

I'm playing an online 10 0 game.  The position is drawn.  We both have seconds left.  I use premove to avoid flagging.  Bad sportsmanship?  I didn't think so but a kibitzer later insisted I was being unfair.  ??

2

Another online game, 20 0.  My opponent is lower rated by about 200 points.  The position is drawish.  He has seconds left, I have minutes left.  He offers me a draw in the last seconds.  Bad sportsmanship to decline?

Thanks.

No.

1. No. True, there was no difference in skill; you just knew or remembered the premove feature. I do not like to see games won or lost because either side knows how to use premoves while the other doesn't, but if the feature is in, it can be used. It's up to you whether you want to win this way. It's not like it shifts your rating much more than a dozen points upwards.

2. No. If you were dumb enough to go down to a few seconds (in a 20 min. game no less) while your opponent has several minutes, you can't expect your opponent to accept a draw offer. Time is part of the game.

I don't know how rating enters into that one.

Thanks for your replies.  The consensus is just what I expected.

Here's my take on things.  As long as you are following the rules and not bad-mouthing anyone etc, it cannot be bad sportsmanship.  My guideline is, be competitive in a competition and don't act competitive when it's not a competition.

Yes, it's unsatisfying to win or lose on anything other than chess skill, but there has to be a tradeoff between good chess and people taking forever to play a game.  If someone doesn't like that, they don't have to play timed games.  I've had similar things happen to me, but I never would have thought to accuse the other player of unethical behavior, like the kibitzer in the first case repeatedly did to me.

Some people might think it's better to be nice and take the draw in these situations and that's their right, but I don't agree.  When you take the draw when you have a big advantage, either on the board or on the clock, you are in effect throwing the game, and not playing to win is definitely bad sportsmanship.

I've won and lost many dead draws due to the clock. It is bad sportsmanship when I lose, but not when I win.

This really doesn't seem to be a question of sportsmanship ... Time management is just as important a skill as knowing your Lucena/Philidor positions.  

 If you can't manage your time, you have to pay a price for it. 

Not to comment directly on the questions, but in a dead draw (i.e. something easy to draw as a C-player vs. a master) in an official USCF tournament, if your opponent, on the verge of losing on time, remembers to call an arbiter over, he/she can get a claim of "Insufficient Losing Chances" per rule 14H that results in a draw.  This is only available when there is no increment, but in the games you listed, there was no increment, so your opponent would have (though you were not in a tournament) normally had recourse to this option.

You can read this starting on page 5 here:

http://www.uschess.org/docs/gov/reports/RulebookChanges.pdf

I consider it bad sportsmanship to flag your opponent if it's really a "dead drawn" position or even with insufficient material (but material which would allow a silly helpmate), with which I mean he can just move a piece back and forth, maybe even by premove, until the opponent runs out of time. It's OK if there is still play in the position (let's say with rooks or same-coloured bishops where one could run into a skewer, ...)

It's a different matter if both players are short of time as mentioned in the original post - you just have to play on in this situation to avoid being flagged yourself. (If my opponent offered me a draw, I'd still accept.)

1. I understand the premove thing (i don't know how to do it) but not sure what "flagging" means. If premove is allowed , it's ok (aren't you premoving in your mind anyway?)

2. just had scenario #2 the other day. 10 0 game I had less than a 1 min left, he had 2 min. I offerred a draw he refused, he tried queening with support of only his king and another pawn (yes i offered cuz i was a little scared about his queening and time) chased him down and checkmated him with 5 sec left. Talk about sweaty hands!

btw i think if you still have a chance to win go for it. Time management is part of the game, it adds to the excitement/strategy

A good TD will have a time delay clock available and will put it into play when a claim of insufficient losing chances is made. Make fifty moves, or repeat the position thrice with five seconds per move.

These issues are probably why most Federations advocate Time-Delay/Increments.

A skilled player can win most  "won by technique" positions on just the 5-second delays/increments alone so there's fewer instances of him getting beaten on the clock by weaker players (who are in losing positions) but  merely hustle with time.

+1. An irritating extension to people "in denial" about time management is when club players want to "play on" after they flag.  This is okay if you're playing with a weaker player asking for help or a friend who wants to analyze another continuation  but against a stranger, I reserve the right to say "the game is OVER".

Why should I risk deteriorating the quality of my position just to keep good time AND avoid flagging only to have you you tell me that want to continue the game AFTERWARDS? It's like I'm the only one who even played with the clock.

 Why not start a new game and have me play with a piece handicap, while you're at it? :)

You do play too win , if you find your getting on with your opponent , then hey why not except a draw , I sometimes quit games because I know I have won and the other side needs the points , and it means more too them to win than it does I...

1. No. There is a risk in premoving that you could play something stupid and give up a free piece, so if you're prepared to take that risk then you deserve a win if you get it.

2. No. Although it might seem like a drawish position, had you have spent as much time thinking as he did, you would probably be in a winning position, so you have already demonstrated that you are the stronger player simply by moving faster.

It's condescending to give up a win because it 'means more to the other guy.'

Purposely losing or drawing when a win is in hand is abuse and violates the policies of nearly every chess site because it is an egregious act of poor sportsmanship

This is why I much prefer playing 30/25 online. No need for premove, no running out of time, and you actually have to win on the board. Better for improving in the long run.

If anyone agrees to play a game with low base time or no delay, they better be sure to focus on the clock as well as the board. No sympathy for either situation. If you can win, do so.

That time control is great for OTB, but staring at a computer screen for hours on end waiting for movement is something my optometrist recommends against.

If you are adhering to the rules of the game, then it's not bad sportsmanship.

...That's not hard and fast, but for a game like chess, it works. There's really not a ton of leeway for being an absolute jerk (beyond, like, berating an individual through chat).

Both the scenarios up top are fine, as far as I'm concerned. However, as always, if it makes you feel uncomfortable and you'd rather act otherwise, then just act otherwise.