studying Endgame first, or Openings.

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Avatar of troy7915

You are not paying attention to what was said: no one was promoting memorization for its own sake. I said understanding every line in your repertoire produces, naturally, and if the brain is capable of it, as a next natural step, memorization. It flows naturally from understanding.

 Understanding comes first, then memorizing the lines that have been understood is the next step. Not understanding all the lines is for the lazy, who want to get by on principles.

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
SteamGear wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

That ‘one defense’ becomes quickly 32, 40, 80 lines. Scheveningen amounts to over 300 lines for me. Then you have Najdorf, Ruy Lopez, or KID as the response to 1. d4. Hundreds of lines with just ‘one’ innocent defense.

In response to 93.

Studying openings doesn't mean "learn every possible line in existence". That'd be an insurmountable approach.

One can start with basic principles, then move toward understanding the basic thematic ideas and goals in a few key openings/defenses of choice.

In any case, some sort of opening study is required, lest you have a player sitting on move 1, scratching their head, having no clue what to do.

Case in point: My nephew (a beginner in every sense of the word) started by studying king+rook endgames.

In the opening? He has always opened with 1. h4, and 1...h5

The reason? When asked, he said it's because he wants to get his rook out first, so he can use it like he's done in his endgames.

Here's an example where the necessity of learning at least some basic opening principles would be (and have been) entirely beneficial to the player.

 

  Every line in your chosen repertoire must be known. Openings are very specific: principles are for the lazy who just want to get by without specific study.

XXX

XXX

"... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

"... the average player only needs to know a limited amount about the openings he plays. Providing he understands the main aims of the opening, a few typical plans and a handful of basic variations, that is enough. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

 

  Certainly not enough, unless the brain in question is average.

Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

... Openings are very specific: principles are for the lazy who just want to get by without specific study.

Quite the contrary , memorising is for the lazy. Understanding is for those willing to work hard in endgame and middlegame. ...

Well, for me, memorizing and understanding are both hard. Maybe it depends on the person?

Avatar of troy7915

Yes, on the brain.

Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
SteamGear wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

That ‘one defense’ becomes quickly 32, 40, 80 lines. Scheveningen amounts to over 300 lines for me. Then you have Najdorf, Ruy Lopez, or KID as the response to 1. d4. Hundreds of lines with just ‘one’ innocent defense.

In response to 93.

Studying openings doesn't mean "learn every possible line in existence". That'd be an insurmountable approach.

One can start with basic principles, then move toward understanding the basic thematic ideas and goals in a few key openings/defenses of choice.

In any case, some sort of opening study is required, ...

  Every line in your chosen repertoire must be known. Openings are very specific: principles are for the lazy who just want to get by without specific study.

"... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

"... the average player only needs to know a limited amount about the openings he plays. Providing he understands the main aims of the opening, a few typical plans and a handful of basic variations, that is enough. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

  Certainly not enough, unless the brain in question is average.

Doesn't it depend on the level of the player, ambitions of the player, etc.? By the way, aren't there quite a lot of near-average brains out there?

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... This book is the first volume in a series of manuals designed for players who are building the foundations of their chess knowledge. The reader will receive the necessary basic knowledge in six areas of the game - tactcs, positional play, strategy, the calculation of variations, the opening and the endgame. ... To make the book entertaining and varied, I have mixed up these different areas, ..." - GM Artur Yusupov

Avatar of SteamGear
troy7915 wrote: 

  Every line in your chosen repertoire must be known.

Not for the beginner—which is the context of this thread.

I applaud opening study as much as the next guy, but telling a beginner to learn every line in their repertoire is asking too much—and putting too much emphasis on a specific aspect of the game, when overall improvement should be the primary goal.

Not to mention, a beginner simply wouldn't understand the reasoning behind every line, especially the sharpest ones.

Better to start with principles, then expand to general thematic ideas.

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
SteamGear wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

That ‘one defense’ becomes quickly 32, 40, 80 lines. Scheveningen amounts to over 300 lines for me. Then you have Najdorf, Ruy Lopez, or KID as the response to 1. d4. Hundreds of lines with just ‘one’ innocent defense.

In response to 93.

Studying openings doesn't mean "learn every possible line in existence". That'd be an insurmountable approach.

One can start with basic principles, then move toward understanding the basic thematic ideas and goals in a few key openings/defenses of choice.

In any case, some sort of opening study is required, ...

  Every line in your chosen repertoire must be known. Openings are very specific: principles are for the lazy who just want to get by without specific study.

"... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

"... the average player only needs to know a limited amount about the openings he plays. Providing he understands the main aims of the opening, a few typical plans and a handful of basic variations, that is enough. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

  Certainly not enough, unless the brain in question is average.

Doesn't it depend on the level of the player, ambitions of the player, etc.? By the way, aren't there quite a lot of near-average brains out there?

 

  Apparently my reply to this one went through a glitch...

 

 Ambitions are fine, but if the brain is average the possibilities will be severely limited.

Avatar of troy7915
SteamGear wrote:
troy7915 wrote: 

  Every line in your chosen repertoire must be known.

Not for the beginner—which is the context of this thread.

I applaud opening study as much as the next guy, but telling a beginner to learn every line in their repertoire is asking too much—and putting too much emphasis on a specific aspect of the game, when overall improvement should be the primary goal.

Not to mention, a beginner simply wouldn't understand the reasoning behind every line, especially the sharpest ones.

Better to start with principles, then expand to general thematic ideas.

 

  Well, firstly nobody should choose a repertoire without understanding the lines being chosen. Taking others’recommendations for a White or Black repertoire should be avoided.

  So it takes quite some time to pick the lines one feels comfortable with, getting at least a general feel for them. Then comes a deepening study of those lines, which literally has no end, for there are so many angles to discover each time you look at them...

Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:

... it takes quite some time to pick the lines one feels comfortable with, getting at least a general feel for them. Then comes a deepening study of those lines, which ...

Perhaps we agree that, for many brains, it might be sensible to let a lot of time go by between the following of the general-feel advice and attention to the subsequent sentence.

Avatar of troy7915

 It doesn’t prove anything other than my capacity to play, not that what I say does or does not apply to others. For that to happen, there must be someone who actually did that profound study, like a student.

 If you want to call what I said ‘nonsense’, be my guest. But labeling it doesn’t refute it. 

 

 To 152.

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

... it takes quite some time to pick the lines one feels comfortable with, getting at least a general feel for them. Then comes a deepening study of those lines, which ...

Perhaps we agree that, for many brains, it might be sensible to let a lot of time go by between the following of the general-feel advice and attention to the subsequent sentence.

 

  Should that happen, though, in the meantime, one is not ready to play the game, yet.

Avatar of kindaspongey
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Avatar of kindaspongey
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Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

... it takes quite some time to pick the lines one feels comfortable with, getting at least a general feel for them. Then comes a deepening study of those lines, which ...

Perhaps we agree that, for many brains, it might be sensible to let a lot of time go by between the following of the general-feel advice and attention to the subsequent sentence.

  Should that happen, though, in the meantime, one is not ready to play the game, yet.

Is there a reason to only play when considered "ready" by troy7915?

Avatar of kindaspongey

DeirdreSkye wrote: "... What are the odds [that IMPfren and another FIDE certified trainer] are wrong and [troy7915 is] right?"

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner? (Especially a beginner who is not thinking about getting a title or being considered to be "ready" by troy7915?)

Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote: "... What are the odds [that IMPfren and another FIDE certified trainer] are wrong and [troy7915 is] right?"
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner?

      You can't seriously expect that a guy that understands nothing about chess , is qualified to know what a beginner needs. ...

Do you have a quote of a claim to know what a beginner needs?

Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner?

      You can't seriously expect that a guy that understands nothing about chess , is qualified to know what a beginner needs. ...

Do you have a specific sentence where "a guy that understands nothing about chess" claimed to know what a beginner needs?

Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner?

      You can't seriously expect that a guy that understands nothing about chess , is qualified to know what a beginner needs. ...

Do you have a specific sentence where "a guy that understands nothing about chess" claimed to know what a beginner needs?

Yes , look at Troy's and your posts.

Do you have an estimate of the number of days that are going to go by without you producing a specific sentence where I claimed to know what a beginner needs?

Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote: "... What are the odds [that IMPfren and another FIDE certified trainer] are wrong and [troy7915 is] right?"
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner?

      You can't seriously expect that a guy that understands nothing about chess , is qualified to know what a beginner needs. ...

Do you have a specific sentence where "a guy that understands nothing about chess" claimed to know what a beginner needs?

Yes , look at Troy's and your posts.

Do you have an estimate of the number of days that are going to go by without you producing a specific sentence where I claimed to know what a beginner needs?

   Do you agree with what IMPfren says?

If yes , there is nothing to discuss. If not , you have your quote!

So, thus far, you have no quote that you wish to produce. Since you now consider it appropriate to ask, I inform you that I do not claim to know what a beginner needs. About 36 minutes ago, I brought up the "possibility" that the truth somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner.