Hold on, cats playing chess have briefly invaded this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcVRF8_6Iec
The draw feature on this site needs to change
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X_Player_J_X,
At move 45 with Qa8+, this move results in third position repetition. According to USCF and FIDE rules as soon as the white player has made his move, he loses his opportunity to claim a draw. Therefore, according to USCF and FIDE rules, I have to show my intention prior to making my move and claim a draw before making the move that results in threefold repetition. As the pieces end up in the same position on this move for the third time, I would simply have shown the arbiter my intention to play Qa8+ on move 45, game over 1/2-1/2.
In FIDE and USCF rules, I am not supposed to make my move but show my intention to play the threefold repetition to the arbiter. 45. Qa8+ is a move that produces threefold repetition. Arbiter would have to enforce draw at this point due to my intention to play that move.
While it is certainly true that chess on the internet need not follow all of the rules of OTB chess (and vice versa), typically there is some attempt to keep the rules as consistent as possible, recognizing the differences between the two forms of chess and logistical difficulties with implementing certain rules. For example, how would one make the players record moves on the computer?
The problem, IMHO, with automatically awarding draws is that it takes away one element of skill -- recognizing that a 3-fold repeitition has occurred. In OTB chess, an arbiter does not watch the game and proclaim a draw after 3-fold repetition; the player desiring the draw must claim it. (Yes, I am aware of the new 5-fold repetition rule, which is very new. I agree that this should be implemented by online chess sites, but I would not be too critical that they have not immediately implemented changes based on recent rule changes. Moreover, this is a distinct rule from the 3-fold repetition rule.)
In my view, the correct way to handle this is to have 2 buttons -- one to offer a draw and one to claim a draw. If one improperly claims a a draw (i.e., not a 3-fold repetition position), then a penalty is imposed. I believe that the USCF rule is that your opponent gets 2 more minutes added to his/her clock. I believe that it is also possible for the arbiter to award a forfeit if a player repeatedly incorrectly claims a draw to harass the opponent. Repeated draw offers can also be penalized.
pt22064,
I do not see any problem in the computer automatically awarding a draw nor do I see this as taking away skill. For instance, if a player wants to avoid a draw, they must take into account when three-fold repetition has occurred or is a potential to occur and attempt to avoid it. Further, the internet does not require us to press our clocks when it is no longer our move (another skill the internet takes away from us).
newengland7 wrote:
X_Player_J_X,
At move 45 with Qa8+, this move results in third position repetition. According to USCF and FIDE rules as soon as the white player has made his move, he loses his opportunity to claim a draw. Therefore, according to USCF and FIDE rules, I have to show my intention prior to making my move and claim a draw before making the move that results in threefold repetition. As the pieces end up in the same position on this move for the third time, I would simply have shown the arbiter my intention to play Qa8+ on move 45, game over 1/2-1/2.
In FIDE and USCF rules, I am not supposed to make my move but show my intention to play the threefold repetition to the arbiter. 45. Qa8+ is a move that produces threefold repetition. Arbiter would have to enforce draw at this point due to my intention to play that move.
I don't think that you are correct under the USCF rules. If you have not pushed your clock, under the USCF rules, you can still claim the draw. FIDE rules are different because you are considered to have made your move once you have put your piece down, and therefore your turn is over and you can no longer claim the draw. The proper protocol under either USCF or FIDE rules is to write down the move and then call over the TD to claim the draw **before** moving the piece. However, under USCF rules, if you move the piece (as long as you have not pushed the clock button), you can still claim the draw.
One reason that this is different under the chess.com rules is that moving the piece simultaneously pushes your clock button. Unless you add in a separate button for your clock, there is no way for you to actually claim a draw prior to clicking on the square you want to move to. However, the closest equivalent is to click on the square and then immediately claim a draw before your opponent moves.
Oct 20, 2015
0
#47
pt22064 wrote:
[...] Unless you add in a separate button for your clock, there is no way for you to actually claim a draw prior to clicking on the square you want to move to. However, the closest equivalent is to click on the square and then immediately claim a draw before your opponent moves.
[...] Unless you add in a separate button for your clock, there is no way for you to actually claim a draw prior to clicking on the square you want to move to. However, the closest equivalent is to click on the square and then immediately claim a draw before your opponent moves.
yes that's the only issue I've exoerienced so far.
so In my opinion it's either that we claim that OP it's lying or didn't realized he didn't claimed the draw when he's got his chances (but with 5 repetitions?) or that he may have suffered a glitch. Honestly the draw button has always worked fine for me.
but why are we still so focused on what happened when we can look at the kitty playing chess on the bed??
pt22064 said:
"Unless you add in a separate button for your clock, there is no way for you to actually claim a draw prior to clicking on the square you want to move to. However, the closest equivalent is to click on the square and then immediately claim a draw before your opponent moves."
Which goes back to my cherry-picking claim. The internet does not have the authority to pick what rules it wants to follow and what rules it won't follow. And besides, if my opponent has pre-move on, he can easily use that to decline any attempt of mine to claim a draw whether it is a rightful claim or not.
Cats-not-knights,
I have already blocked yeres30 for falsely accusing me. If you think I am lying or mistaken, you will be blocked as well. There is no option to claim that the OP in this thread is lying or didn't realize I claimed a draw when I got my chances. If the system said I claimed a draw, it would have ended the game. I am not lying and this is quite well-established. From now on, I will not allow any one to post a comment on this thread if it is in support of the cherry-picked draw policy on chess.com as all the arguments for it are based on cherry-picking and have not interacted with my arguments against it either. Therefore, I no longer feel that they contribute to the discussion. If you would like to present an argument for the draw feature on this site that is not a cherry-picked comment or a re-hash that I must have been mistaken about when I clicked the draw button or a false accusation against me, you may present your argument but I am through with cherry-picked arguments as they make me want to vomit!
Oct 20, 2015
0
#49
Actually, sites can choose which rules to implement or how they get implemented. Just as players can choose to show their dissatisfaction or not play on a site that doesn't follow rules exactly.
I know a few years ago the some members tested triple-repetition in online but I don't recall the results without looking it up. Should be fairly trivial to test with some Live unrated games to find out exactly how it is implemented. Some rules can be and are different on some sites.
But back to my original point, the insufficient material rule used here is a variation of the USCF rules and had a few edge cases where it does not follow those completely (unless it has been fixed since the last time I saw posts about it).
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Actually, sites can choose which rules to implement or how they get implemented. Just as players can choose to show their dissatisfaction or not play on a site that doesn't follow rules exactly.
You are of course absolutely correct. Unfortunately, the point you make is little more than tautology.
How the 3 move repetition rule should be implemented on this website is precisely the point of this discussion, as is how satisfied we are with its implementation.
Oct 20, 2015
0
#51
That's just it. To my knowledge the implementation has been pretty much the same since I have been here. The discussion comes up periodically and unless it has changed in v3, the likelihood of additional discussion changing the implementation is minimal.
Of course, the best thing is to actually test and prove how it actually works because some are saying it works as expected and some are saying it doesn't.
X_Player_J_X,
I clicked the draw button prior to making one of my moves that resulted in repetition. As was mentioned, I was unfamiliar that I was the one who had to click the draw button when third repetition was reached. Most computer engines I've played on automatically end the game as a draw when third repetition is reached. chess.com is the first I've played on that doesn't happen. Though I was not technically in the wrong as when I clicked the draw button, if this was OTB, I could have informed my opponent that the game will be a draw via third repetition rule because this is the move I am going to make so let us end the game as draw here. If he declined, I could get an arbiter and explain my intention and the arbiter would not require me to play the move but would end the game as a draw.
You are playing with the white pieces not the black pieces.
The arbiter would not force a draw.
Unless black played the same follow up move after you.
At which point your opponent could deviate.