True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

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Avatar of Kyobir

React to this message with wk if you think it's a win for White, bk if you think it's a win for Black, and half if you think it's a draw.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
hushpersonok wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Oh, so you're changed your mind. Previously you were arguing that the second player wins by force but it didn't seem likely, somehow. The idea of black being able to obtain a winning zugzwang by force could never be demonstrated and that is because the possibility doesn't exist but even if it did exist, it couldn't be demonstrated, ever.

I don't remember ever saying that. Of course it's possible, but that's not something I would suggest.

White wins by force because white moves first. Forcing, probably through many different paths, multiple middle games where it's a forced mate in a certain amount of moves. Probably in the thousands.

I also remember you saying black wins by force on a few occasions in this thread. You never gave any reasons for that statement so I took it as a jab at those who claimed it was so impossible that it need not be investigated.

My opinion is that chess is most likely inherently a draw, but by no means can that be claimed to be a proven fact.

I said it's possible that black could win, but not likely. The only way black could win, in my opinion, is if they go first. I also said chess could be a draw. But that also is unlikely in my opinion. I never said black has a forced win from the opening position.

Not that it matters, proving white has a win wont happen for at least a couple hundred years.

The first move advantage is not very significant. It only controls the way some openings can be played. If we assume that perfect play means that the player is familiar and knows all openings, then Black can respond accordingly and maintain a draw. It will of course be harder for black but with PERFECT play it will be a draw.

I have seen your comments on other threads and they have been reasonable. I hope you take my points into consideration.

I agree with your first sentence. I've seen players and computers force a win with an advantage that is "not very significant". I would say even a far less advantage is all it takes to force a win.

I think of it as compounded interest in your savings account. Or I guess what some people call the butterfly effect. A very small, very insignificant, very miniscule effect. But over time, it grows.

I know some people think the first move advantage fades, and eventually vanishes. But I think the opposite. I think it's like the tiny percentage of interest you earn on your savings account that's compounded. At first, it's basically nothing. Even after a while it's not enough to even bother with. But after a few weeks, a few months, then a few years, the change is noticeable.

Eventually the change is huge. It's undeniable. It becomes overwhelming. Because of the crude and limited power of todays computers this change cannot be noticed. Todays computers are still in their infancy, not even toddlers. But eventually, probably in about 200 years, they will mature a little bit. They will begin to see the significance of small advantages. Like so many of mans achievements, looking back it becomes obvious why it was never discovered. The knowledge, the technology, the wisdom, the building on previous discoveries takes time.

Yes, chess is a forced win for white. But as so many have said here, does it really matter?

Avatar of Optimissed

Nevertheless, it still has to be an advantage sufficient to force a win and what one person may think is not significant might well be significant to the person who sees the winning process.
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The initial position doesn't consist of a winning advantage to one side. Otherwise, in the millions of games that have been played by humans, such an advantage would have made itself apparent. Even computers can't find it, because it doesn't exist.

Avatar of Optimissed
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Oh, so you're changed your mind. Previously you were arguing that the second player wins by force but it didn't seem likely, somehow. The idea of black being able to obtain a winning zugzwang by force could never be demonstrated and that is because the possibility doesn't exist but even if it did exist, it couldn't be demonstrated, ever.

I don't remember ever saying that. Of course it's possible, but that's not something I would suggest.

White wins by force because white moves first. Forcing, probably through many different paths, multiple middle games where it's a forced mate in a certain amount of moves. Probably in the thousands.

I also remember you saying black wins by force on a few occasions in this thread. You never gave any reasons for that statement so I took it as a jab at those who claimed it was so impossible that it need not be investigated.

My opinion is that chess is most likely inherently a draw, but by no means can that be claimed to be a proven fact.

I said it's possible that black could win, but not likely. The only way black could win, in my opinion, is if they go first. I also said chess could be a draw. But that also is unlikely in my opinion. I never said black has a forced win from the opening position.

Not that it matters, proving white has a win wont happen for at least a couple hundred years.

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You repeatedly claimed that black, the second player, wins by force. There's no doubt about it and no doubt that you were using it to sharpen your considerable debating skills.
happy.png No doubt at all. You can try to alter reality but that's what you repeatedly claimed.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
Optimissed wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Oh, so you're changed your mind. Previously you were arguing that the second player wins by force but it didn't seem likely, somehow. The idea of black being able to obtain a winning zugzwang by force could never be demonstrated and that is because the possibility doesn't exist but even if it did exist, it couldn't be demonstrated, ever.

I don't remember ever saying that. Of course it's possible, but that's not something I would suggest.

White wins by force because white moves first. Forcing, probably through many different paths, multiple middle games where it's a forced mate in a certain amount of moves. Probably in the thousands.

I also remember you saying black wins by force on a few occasions in this thread. You never gave any reasons for that statement so I took it as a jab at those who claimed it was so impossible that it need not be investigated.

My opinion is that chess is most likely inherently a draw, but by no means can that be claimed to be a proven fact.

I said it's possible that black could win, but not likely. The only way black could win, in my opinion, is if they go first. I also said chess could be a draw. But that also is unlikely in my opinion. I never said black has a forced win from the opening position.

Not that it matters, proving white has a win wont happen for at least a couple hundred years.

:
You repeatedly claimed that black, the second player, wins by force. There's no doubt about it and no doubt that you were using it to sharpen your considerable debating skills.
No doubt at all. You can try to alter reality but that's what you repeatedly claimed.

I said it's possible black could win, but I also said it's possible it could be a draw. It's just that neither are as likely as it being a forced win for white. To your point what might have happened is that I said black has a forced win, in response to someone saying it's a draw. The point of that would be to respond to something that's very unlikely with something that is also very unlikely, to show what little sense it makes. If someone were to say the moon is made out of green cheese, I might say it is not, it's made out of white cheese.

I don't ever recall ever saying black has a forced win from the beginning. Unless, of course, black enjoys the first move advantage. (or the context above). I would not ask anyone to quote me where I said black wins by force, because that's too much work to go back and find it. But I'm pretty sure that will never happen anyway, because it's not there.

Avatar of Optimissed

Hi anyway xx

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
Optimissed wrote:

Hi anyway xx

I enjoy your viewpoints in the politics section by the way.

Avatar of Optimissed

Oh thanks. We aways thought similarly. With a mind like mine you could have ruled the World!

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

i read s/w when AZ played stockfish abuncha times AZ won a few games. not sure. does that make chess not a draw ?...for right now ?

Avatar of Optimissed

She read somewhere when Arizona played stockfish a goodly number of times and Arizona won; and asks if it changes anything.

Avatar of Optimissed
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Hi anyway xx

I enjoy your viewpoints in the politics section by the way.

That turned out to be code for "someone's written something else extremely implausible and dim; and you should take a look".
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Thanks Pat.

Avatar of zborg
hushpersonok wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

I believe from 62 years of playing chess and thousands of my own games that chess is a draw unless one side or the other makes a mistake.

I would suggest that out of billions of chess games that one cannot find even one game which was won or lost without one of the players making a mistake. If anyone thinks they can find such a game please post it here.

I agree with you completely.

Before anyone contradicts him I want you to think of it the other way. With perfect play will Black win? No. With perfect play will White win? Probably not.

However, chess is not a solved game. Perfect play especially in long games is extremely difficult, so chess is still fun and tense.

Clear thinking and excellent concision, from both of you, (above). Thanks Again.

Avatar of LarsForge

Nice