True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides - Chess Forums - Page 102

najdorf96

Dec 3, 2015

0

#2021

I would definitely agree to challenging you to a match whereas the condition would be I'm white the whole way.

What say you?

bluewoods

Jun 20, 2017

0

#2022

LoekBergman wrote:

I can't imagine it differently. The advantage of the first move is in my opinion an advantage for white, yet too small to force a win. The GM's are very good at chess. If chess would imply a win for white, then would imho the rate of won games at the GM level be much higher then currently is.

Hasn't there been research indicating that the higher the rating of both players is, the bigger the chance that the game ends in a draw?

No not for me, for all the games I played in USCF, 60% of them ended in draws

ponz111

Jun 20, 2017

0

#2023

Yes, the higher rating for both players--the bigger chance the game ends in a draw.

This is obvious from watching grandmaster games.

JonHutch

Jun 20, 2017

0

#2024

The operative word is theoretical. The trend in chess history for Super GMs playing different openings is an eventual refutation of certain lines and the process repeats itself suggesting a theoretical draw with perfect play.

ponz111

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2025

najdorf96 wrote:

I would presume, being part of US chess lore, your recent successes as black really would motivate you to honestly say...black can win 50% of the time. Much more so, equal amount of time. Your impressive record is indeed historical.

It is more of an testament to your quality of play than actual credence to this discussion that black has any hope of winning vs best play from white.

Fischer himself decreed, you have to equalize first before fishing for something (as black). I believe that still holds true as a fundamental.

despite my success with Black--i know that chess is a draw with best play by both sides. Yes, Fischer is correct that you have to equalize first before fishing for something better [but there may be exceptions to this rule]

When i say chess is a draw with best play by both sides--i mean that i am 99.99% sure that chess is a draw with best play by both sides.

zborg

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2026

This thread is now blank with two copies of the pages listed horizontally above??

V3 at it's best?

Or perhaps it's a bug in my soft or hardware. It's anybody's guess.

Path2GrandMaster

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2027

True

camter

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2028

The question boils down to "Is Chess solved?"

There is an interminable thread carrying on that argument elsewhere.

Every serious game played by the cream of players brings us a little closer, or prolongs the argument.

SmyslovFan

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2029

No, Camter. Long before we know for certain every single solution to every move, we can figure out whether chess is a draw. The material required to win is just too much, and there are too many simple draws out there already. We know, beyond all reasonable doubt (see judicial definitions of reasonable doubt), that chess is a draw.

But we haven't *solved* chess yet.

Path2GrandMaster

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2030

@aktripathi001,

Cool game, I analyzed it and it seems both players played perfectly until whites 11th move. This is an extremely sharp position as cxd4 actually loses to Qf6!

If your engine analysis showed 0 inaccuracies, it must have been on "quick" mode. Still an impressive and interesting, extremely extremely sharp line.

Alsowhite should seriously consider 6.Kxf2.

lfPatriotGames

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2031

hari2017 wrote:

ponz111 wrote:

I believe from 62 years of playing chess and thousands of my own games that chess is a draw unless one side or the other makes a mistake.

I would suggest that out of billions of chess games that one cannot find even one game which was won or lost without one of the players making a mistake. If anyone thinks they can find such a game please post it here.

can you define a mistake first sir

That is a great question. I would also ask, from anyone, to define "best play". I dont think anyone, human or machine, has ever seen it.

HSule03

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2032

Nobody is that evenly matched, one side is bound to make a mistake.

Path2GrandMaster

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2033

Kf1 or Kxf2 is a small difference and neither of those moves are mistakes. However move 11 by white was the mistake and the reason black won.

Path2GrandMaster

Mar 6, 2018

0

#2034

The best move is the move which leads to the most optimal position from the given position. This is equivalent to the theoretical minMax and Nash Equilibrium.

ESP-918

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2035

Destroyer_Mark_1420 wrote:

If perfect play is played from both sides.... nobody knows what will happen. Not even computers... yet.

👏 FINALLY someone gives correct answer

The OP asking this question, yet he states with "PERFECT" play the game of chess is a draw ! Before you claim something like that , let me ask you just ONE question, one question only WHAT IS A PERFECT PLAY !?

HorribleTomato

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2036

We shall never know...

ponz111

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2037

hari2017 wrote:

ponz111 wrote:

I believe from 62 years of playing chess and thousands of my own games that chess is a draw unless one side or the other makes a mistake.

I would suggest that out of billions of chess games that one cannot find even one game which was won or lost without one of the players making a mistake. If anyone thinks they can find such a game please post it here.

can you define a mistake first sir

A mistake in chess is a move which changes the theoretical result. Could be from a draw to a win [or loss] or a win to a draw [or loss].

ponz111

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2038

ESP-918 wrote:

Destroyer_Mark_1420 wrote:

If perfect play is played from both sides.... nobody knows what will happen. Not even computers... yet.

👏 FINALLY someone gives correct answer

The OP asking this question, yet he states with "PERFECT" play the game of chess is a draw ! Before you claim something like that , let me ask you just ONE question, one question only WHAT IS A PERFECT PLAY !?

Perfect play is making moves correct enough so that the theoretical result of the game does not go down [from a draw to a loss or from a win to a loss or draw]

ESP-918

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2039

ponz111 wrote:

ESP-918 wrote:

Destroyer_Mark_1420 wrote:

If perfect play is played from both sides.... nobody knows what will happen. Not even computers... yet.

👏 FINALLY someone gives correct answer

The OP asking this question, yet he states with "PERFECT" play the game of chess is a draw ! Before you claim something like that , let me ask you just ONE question, one question only WHAT IS A PERFECT PLAY !?

Perfect play is making moves correct enough so that the theoretical result of the game does not go down [from a draw to a loss or from a win to a loss or draw]

In order to make correct moves you need to have proof, that they are correct, do you have that? How do you know if particular move correct or not if you don't have any proof? Also the game of chess hasn't been solved ! You can say SOME moves are 99.9% in the ENDGAME where 6 or less pieces left sure, but everything else ......

Before we thought stockfish 8 was playing PERFECT moves, next thing you know Alpha zero comes after 4-10 hours of training and prooves that we don't know chess AT ALL.

Chess is a mystery it will stay in the history !

ponz111

Mar 7, 2018

0

#2040

ESP-918 wrote: ponz in blue

ponz111 wrote:

ESP-918 wrote:

Destroyer_Mark_1420 wrote:

If perfect play is played from both sides.... nobody knows what will happen. Not even computers... yet.

👏 FINALLY someone gives correct answer

The OP asking this question, yet he states with "PERFECT" play the game of chess is a draw ! Before you claim something like that , let me ask you just ONE question, one question only WHAT IS A PERFECT PLAY !?

Perfect play is making moves correct enough so that the theoretical result of the game does not go down [from a draw to a loss or from a win to a loss or draw]

In order to make correct moves you need to have proof, that they are correct, do you have that? This is not true. Correct moves can be made by chance.

How do you know if particular move correct or not if you don't have any proof? I did not say that I would know if a particular move was correct or not? However since I am a fairly good player--I have enough knowledge to guess if many moves are correct or not?

Also the game of chess hasn't been solved ! Correct the game of chess has not been solved and probably never will be solved.

You can say SOME moves are 99.9% in the ENDGAME where 6 or less pieces left sure, but everything else ......I did not say the game of chess has been solved. What I said was that I am 99.99% sure that the game of chess is a draw with correct play by both sides...[in other words the game of chess is a draw if neither side makes an error]

I am not 100% sure of anything but I am 99.99% sure that the game of chess is a draw if neither side makes a mistake [or to reword if both sides make correct moves]

To put it another way--I am 99.99% sure that with correct play [not making mistakes] the game of chess is neither a win for White or a win for Black.

Before we thought stockfish 8 was playing PERFECT moves, next thing you know Alpha zero comes after 4-10 hours of training and prooves that we don't know chess AT ALL.

OH come on!! no good player thought stockfish 8 was playing perfect moves. Also Alpha zero will not always make perfect moves.

Chess is a mystery it will stay in the history ! Some of chess is hard to fathom--however the stronger the player you are--the more you fathom.