When nothing is forced...

Optopussed's lemony posts provide a nice contrast to make X_J's posts shine like diamonds.

He is even resorting to Smelroch-style attempts at insults with his "alters". Such a turn-off!

Well even you have to acknowledge the bishop outside of the pawn chain is simply better. I believe that subtle factor makes Nxd4 a dubious move in that position.

However, Even though I believe Nxd4 is a dubious move in that position. I also believe it is only applicable to a certain level.

For example:

If 2 - 1200 players where to play from that exact position both sides would have excellent chances of winning becuase the subtle difference wouldn't really matter a great deal.

As you get stronger as a chess player blunders, mistakes, inaccuracies become very hard to exploit.

The higher you go up the ranking level the more precise the play is. So I believe in like a GM level for example that subtle difference would allow black to win the game.

Magnus Carlsen once played a line with a equal 0.15 advanage. His opponent played precise defensive moves like Stockfish/Engine recommended best moves. Yet Magnus was able to turn that 0.15 into a win. He was playing with the white pieces and ended up causing black to enter into a ZugZwang. An his opponent was playing precise computer engine moves and once he entered that ZugZwang the engines saw black was lost.

So we have to be honest here and unbias. This 4.Nxd4 move might be bad in a high level setting. However, below a certain point it does become playable. A beginner for exampe isn't going to know the 25-30 precise moves to exploit/punish this move lol.

I believe a fair measure of this line would be the following:

Rankings

0-2500+ playable

2500-2800+ unplayable

Does that sound like a fair measurement of the position. What are your guys/gals thoughts on the matter?

Again this is just with the move 4.Nxd4 below diagram only with the follow up Nf6, e5, and Bb4 seems to be effective.

We did not touch on other possible 4th moves. I did mention a few of them Qxd4 and c3 etc. I did see a Judit Polar game and she was ranked 2500+ at the time. The move Judit played was the move 4.Qxd4.

Below Diagram

However, this is a different beast all together. An we didn't touch on it that much.

It might be crazy to say but Optimissed claim was that 3.d4 was playable.

LOL Even though he tryed to be a critic against my analysis.

I have not refuted Optimissed claim. We can't call this busted. We only looked at 1 move(4.Nxd4).

So at this moment I feel like I can safely say the move 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 is playable from the ranking 0 to 2500. Once the rankings get into the 2500+ range. I believe GM's start to feel uncomfortable. It is a road/line untraveled and maybe thats why. They see alot of weakness and they prefer going down another road/line more safe.

We have only scratched the surface of this 3.d4 move. I think many chess players fall into the same mindset of thinking a move is bad because of 1 bad variation. I must admit I thought 3.d4 was bad everyone said it was bad. They showed this continuation. Yet when we began our analysis we saw white wasn't forced into this variation. No one is forcing him to play 4.Nxd4. He can play 4.Qxd4. He can treat the position like a Gambit and develop his bishop. He can play c3 almost like a Smith Morra Gambit.

Plenty of lines here. We simply can't go over all of them the complexity of all the variations which can arise from these position's would be to great.

We could spend the rest of our lives going over this one line and still not being able to solve all the different possible move's. Which alot of Grand Masters from the past have. They contributed their view and analysis to a line which consumed them the rest of there life lol. They was just so captivated by all its possibilities.

Which you can't blame them. I believe everyone is like that. They see a line they like and just become captivated by it no matter what anyone says. They spend all their efforts to try and improve their line. Which only demonstrates the beauty of chess.

Optimissed claim was that 3.d4 was playable. Possible! It seems Possible! We simply have not done enough analysis to disprove such a claim.

To label 3.d4 as unplayable becuase of 1 move would be like throwing away a pair of shoes because of 1 bad shoe lace.

(We can always get another shoe lace! or play another move! Can't throw the whole shoe away becuase of that 1 small problem.)

Unless someone can prove black will win or get a huge advantage against every possible move than they can't call this unplayable.

An even if they do prove black will win or get a huge advantage they will also have to try and do an approximation to what level it is considered unplayable at.

@Borsuk3

I have an online friend who plays the Sicilian Dragon lol I been trying to beat him with the white piece's. Well I have before but not consistently. I won through bunch of complications lol. He is like 2100+ rated in OTB chess. I heard a rumor that their is a line white plays that has a very good score against the Sicilian Dragon. The problem is I don't know what it exactly is. It is said to have the move Kb1 in it. However, high level GM's lol haven't revealed lol it.

So I tryed looking at your game to see if I can find that line/learn as well.

I looked at your first game and I saw something strange 15.Qe3. I thought that move looked strange.

I put the position into a Chess Computer just to see what it thought. It doesn't like the move that much either lol. However, The chess engine doesn't show a clear way of exploiting it a 100%. It gives black with a couple of choice's. I was just curious about the move 15...Re8. Just putting the rook indirectly in front of where the queen moved.

What do you think of this move. Also maybe it helps you so that you can play Bh8 later on in some cases to avoid bishop trade. Just an idea I suppose.

X_Player, are you really trying to say that the move 2...a6 is more beneficial to Black than any other move in the postion? The only function of that move is to stop a Nb5 idea, and this is only useful if you get e5 in. In all other variations, you've probably wasted time. 3. b4 is only one way to highlight this.

Even if White plays 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4, in your 9...Qc7 variation, you forget one key point. White has the bishop pair! This means that central breaks like d5 or f5 will probably fail!

Also, if 10. Qd3 O-O 11. a4! Nbd7 12. Ba3, Black doesn't have the space to organize an attack on the c-pawns, but White can manuever and attack d6.

I'm a creep who needs removing am I ?

The person who is creeping around writing crap about X_J and anyone who likes his posts is you.

What kind of person rubbishes someone who goes to so much trouble to write up posts that other members appreciate ? a thread hijacker ?

Is it jealousy ? Stop acting like a baby.

Game with JamalRasheed:

15. ... Re8 - maybe computer move; but it is passive; no matter that it is placing the rook on the same file as the queen, becouse e-file will not be open soon(if ever) - only advantage is that then it is possible to play Bh8 in case of Bh6 as you pointed out X_PLAYER_J_X. Nevertheless I do not like this move, becouse I cannnot do such a passive thing when castled opposite sides.

15. ... Nc4 - I was thinking about that during the game Optimissed. But I made some crazy lines when white attacks on the kingside and decided to give a go b4. I was afraided of 16.Bxc4 Rxc4 17.g4 which was the same attack which I fall into after 15. ... b4 so I think that Nc4 was probably slightly better, but nothing special.

15. ... b4 - when I played this move I was already calcutated the variation 16.Bxf6 bxc3 17.Bxg7 Kxg7 - I knew that I shouldn't allow him to exchange dark square bishops, but I thought that I get counterplay with this pawn on c3(if he takes it on the open b-file). I thought that when I allow: 15. ... b4 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.Nd5 then I should secure my bishop 17. ... Bg7 and this knight in the center looks dangerous in view of whites attack on the kingside. With help of the computer I found that I was right that my position after taking on c3 is ok because I get conterplay, but reality is that whites attack is faster and I didn't handled it properly. On the other hand only this pawn on c3 save me in the middle game(and my opponent mistakes of course).

Maybe something like this. For sure Rg8 is better than Qc8 - I agree with that, becouse Qc8 is passive. But I am sure that white cannot lose after that, even though I cannot find best moves for white.

My below response is against the red highlighted area.

No please don't miss understand. I played a game against an opponent who played the move 2...a6 which is known as the O'Kelly Variation.

I was discussing different 3rd move options as white against 2...a6

In the game I played something like d3 or g3 going into like a fianchetteo KIA/Close Sicilian type of position.

However, I was wondering about other alternative move's.

I than said the statement of something like 3.d4 doesn't seem to be very good or playable. Which in truth they do say that alot about 3.d4 against the O'Kelly variation. However, by saying that it caused Optimissed to retort and say something along the lines as if its playable and other people are idiots etc.

So I did some analysis to see if his statement was right if 3.d4 was playable or not. The lines I used in my analysis are considered to be the lines which are said to be favorable to black.

Optimissed believes my analysis is full of crap which is seen by his statements such as

"X-player is being obsessive and is incorrect."

"d6 is known to be bad. You really need to stop quoting this chess engine garbage, X-player. Sorry but that's how it is."

"Is this more chess engine analysis? Forget chess engines and you might become a stronger player."

"You'd do a lot worse than to try and learn from my comments, since although I'm not the strongest player here, I'm sure I understand more about these positions than others here, since I have been a strong player and I've played them for 20 years and developed some of the lines myself. Pay less attention to your own ideas."

Blacks problem piece which is usually his dark square bishop is outside of the pawn chain on b4 in a more aggressive manner.

Normally that dark bishop is on e7 stuck behind his d6 pawn and knight on f6 in a passive manner in dozens of Najdorf lines. Normally the only time that bishop sees the light of day is when black has successfully manage to do the liberating d5 pawn break. Which usually happens in the middle/endgame. So half the game if not the entire game the bishop on e7 has been useless/passive.

Optimissed only agruement is with the Whites King knight. He switches his statements from the White king knight as if its better on b3, f3, e2,f5.

I showed him an example of the White king knight on b3. It was completely dead. The knight on b3 could not go any were. He than said its better on f3. I showed him examples of it on f3 and he goes back and says its better on b3.

Frankly it doesn't matter were that knight goes. The knight is completely irrelevent. He is missing the simple point. The dark bishop which is normally passive through out the game has became active in the opening.

What kings knight move on earth can Optimissed make to change the simple fact that the dark bishop has become active.

It is an active piece which normally is never active until the later part of the game.

My below response is against the blue highlighted area.

Even if White plays 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4, in your 9...Qc7 variation, you forget one key point. White has the bishop pair! This means that central breaks like d5 or f5 will probably fail!

Yes in my analysis I did say white had the bishop pair. The problem is black will not allow white to keep the bishop pair. Eventually black will play Be6 to try and trade off 1 of the bishops or they will take a bishop with a knight.

When that happens the powerful bishop pair white is suppose to have will be gone. An again the issue will remain. The dark bishop which never sees the light of day has became a monster. White in most Najdorf variations cages that bishop behind the d6 pawn and knight on f6. It gets caged back their for a long time. In this situation the dark bishop has been unleashed and has caused structure damage to the white position. Getting rid of whites strongest piece.

However, if you have feed back you would like to give me or analysis you want me to take a look at. I am more than welcome to give it a try.

we should ask him!

Optimissed wrote:X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

You have yet to show concrete continuations to prove the following continuation has no problems. I am sorry but just because you say it is wrong doesn't mean its a valid reason. You must show support or concrete continuations proving you are right. A beginner can say the line is wrong with out showing any evidence. Does that mean we should take his word on it becuase he said so? No matter were the knight moves the dark bishop will go to b4. Once it goes their black will achieve a better position than usual because his problem piece is no longer a problem.

back of the net!!

Sorry board editor is not working for me, but here is the analysis:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e56. Nf3! Most accurate, as if Black tries to play as before:  (6. Nb3 Bb4 7. Bc4 d6 8. O-O Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Qd3Qc7 11. a4! The idea is to stop the b5 break and gain Q-side space. 11... Nbd7 ( 11... Be6?! Maybe Black just wants the bishops off? 12. Bxe6 fxe6 13. Ba3 And Black's lagging development will hurt him: 13... Rd8 14. Rad1 d5 15. Nc5Re8 16. Qh3 Nxe4 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Bd6 Maybe alright for Black, but I know who I prefer. Also, who has more weakness? More activity?  ) 12. Ba3 Nb6 13. Nd2 Rd814. a5!? Na4 15. Rfe1 Be6 16. Bxe6 fxe6 17. Bb4 Nb218. Qh3 Black's knight is offside, the c3 pawn is not going to be won any time soon, and after: 18... Qc8 ( 18... Kf719. Rf1!? Nc4 20. Nxc4 Qxc4 21. f4 With a good attack.  )19. Rab1 Nc4 20. Nxc4 Qxc4 21. Rbd1 d6 comes under pressure.  ) 6... Bb4 7. Bc4 O-O 8. O-O Bxc3 9. bxc3 Qc710. Qd3 d6 11. Ba3 Is close to winning, as White doesn't fear b5 anymore. Also, Be6 ideas are met with a strong Ng5! 11... Ne8 Sadly, forced. 12. Rab1 Nd7 13. h4 With space in the kingside and pressure on d6. 

1. e4 c5

2. Nf3 a6

3. d4 cxd4

4. Nxd4 Nf6 - Black threats the e4 pawn.

5. Nc3 - Defends the e4 pawn.

5...e5 - Gains a tempo on the knight

White has a few choices here with his knight move 6.Nf3 and 6.Nb3

6.Nf3

6...Bb4 - Gets the Black bishop outside of the pawn chain,  threats whites strongest piece the knight on c3, and in some cases threats to take the e4 pawn.

7. Bc4 - Developing a piece. It also answers the threat of Nxe4 with Bxf7+.

7...d6 - Defends the e5 pawn and develops the LSB.

8. O-O
8...Bxc - Ruining whites pawn structure, Taking the strongest white piece in the position, and Getting rid of the bad bishop.

9.bxc3 - Recapturing the bishop

9...Qc7 - Developing the Queen, Gaining a tempo by hitting the bishop on c4, and indirectly hitting the c3 pawn.

10. Qd3 - Trying to defend all the threats with the white queen.

10...Nbd7 - Defends against Ba3 threat by blocking the pawn with Nc5 and Develops a piece.

If 10...0-0 11.Ba3 targetting d6 is not pleasant and gives white slight advantage

11...Ne8 is considered best yet now black pieces going in reverse

11...Rd8 gets crushed on the spot with 12.Ng5 knight and bishop cordinating on f7.

After 10...Nbd7 black threatens Nc5 on the queen and e4 pawn.

11.Rd1 - Seek immediate counter play on d6. To answer Blacks threat of Nc5

11...Nc5 - Gains tempo on queen and e4 pawn.

After 11...Nc5 trades happen

12. Qxd6 Qxd6

13. Rxd6

13...Nfxe4 - Regaining lost pawn, Attacking the rook and helping supports a f6 to defend e5 pawn.

14. Rd1 - Because the rook have been shut off from the D file all black pieces/pawns are hitting every entry point square except d1

14...f6 - Helping to defend e5 pawn with a pawn.

15. Re1 - Moving the rook away from the D file to avoid Nxc3 coming with tempo. It also threatens a tactic of Nxe5

After 15.Re1 black has 2 moves he can play which allow him to have a slight edge. The 2 moves are 15...Kd7 or 15...Bd7

If 15...Kd7 - It Unpins from the tactic white had and black is in an middle/endgame where he has better centralized pieces and more weaknesses to target.

I believe this is the better continuation which is slightly favored for black yet. I will show the other continuation just so you can see the tactics etc.

If 15...Bd7 - It welcomes the tactic to exchange off more pieces. The tactic that follows is the following:

16.Nxe5 fxe5

17.f3!  regains the knight on e4

If the knight moves on e4 with like 17...Nf6 as example 18.Rxe5+ threatens the knight on c5 which is undefended getting that knight instead. If the knight on c5 moves to lets say block the check with 18...Ne6 than white plays 19.Bxe6 and again the piece is regained.

After 17.f3!  black best move is

17...Bb5 welcoming the exchange of more piece's.

The position is considered equal yet the position is entering into an endgame.

An if the position draws for black well many GM's would not mine. They are playing black after all. Most GM's play for a win with white and a Draw with black.

18.Bxb5 18...axb5

19.fxe - regains the lost piece

19...Kd7

It simply is a dry position were black has a 1 knight + 2 rooks  vs 1 bishop + 2 rooks + 1 extra pawn. Strangely enough this position is considered equal lol the extra pawn for some reason doesn't seem to matter. Which is beyond me. A Pawn is a Pawn and even if its a double C pawn thats still extra pawn. I think white is doing ok here but engines say to the contrary. I like the other continuation 15...Kd7 Seems better for black but this still seems to be considered Ok for black.

White has a few choices here with his knight move 6.Nf3 and 6.Nb3

6.Nb3 Bb4 7. Bc4 Qc7 8. Qd3 b5 9. Bd5 Nxd5 10. exd5 Bxc3+ 11. bxc3 d6 12. a4 bxa4 13. Rxa4 a5

The above moves was the continuation I saw for 6.Nb3. Before I add any commentary to it. Got any recommendations of moves you think should be changed for white?

You consider 6 Nf5 a retreat ?  

I think few chess players would consider N/d4-f5 a retreat as its going from your half of the board into the enemy camp , going from the 4th rank to the fifth rank isnt a retreat , its an advance .  If the N moves to e2, f3 , or b3 then all these moves are certainly retreats , but if it goes into the enemy's camp from its own its certainly NOT a retreat . 

Retreat generally means to go backwards. Nd4-f5 is going forward, into the enemy camp. It's an aggressive move, and in just about every sense of the word, the opposite of a retreat. 

Perhaps you're confused by the fact that the N has to reposition itself?

Here's another example of the N "retreating", at least according to Optimissed:

Well Their are several retreats

6.Nf5  or  6.Nde2

The problem is Optimissed has been harping on 6.Nf3 and 6.Nb3.

So I wanted to show examples of those 2.

Your statement about Nf5 as a retreat is wrong like Reb said

A retreat goes backwards and A attack goes forward

However, it is another choice for the knight to go I simply didn't show its continuation becuase you seemed content in demonstrating Nb3 or Nf3 as superior moves for the knight.

Which I have yet to see evident.

I also said the knight on c3 is white strongest piece. An normally black's passive useless bishop on e7 which hardly see the light of days stays caged in normal Najdorf conditions in this case

This tranposition from O'Kelly into a Najdorf as turned the position into a Najdorf on steriods.

With the dark bishop becoming unleashed.

Which normally isn't.

In this post, your move 11...Nc5 is met by Bxc5 Qxc5, Rad1 (Bb3 and a4 are also good)  Bg4, Bb3 Rd8, h3 Bh5, Rd2 0-0, Nh4, where White is the only one attacking a weakness. Objectively, it is equal, but Black is definitely not better.