Yes, but what about White? He gets to pressure d6 and enjoy leads in development that he never had before! You simply aren't looking at both sides of the coin.
When nothing is forced...
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bangalore2 wrote:
In this post, your move 11...Nc5 is met by Bxc5 Qxc5, Rad1 (Bb3 and a4 are also good) Bg4, Bb3 Rd8, h3 Bh5, Rd2 0-0, Nh4, where White is the only one attacking a weakness. Objectively, it is equal, but Black is definitely not better.
After white plays 14.Bb3
It seems black has 2 lines he can play
14...Rd8
or
14...0-0
If he goes with 14...Rd8
After black plays 15.Bh5
It seems white has 2 lines he can play
16.Re1 - This line is considered better for white by engine. However, white is still a little worse
or
16.Rd2 - This line is said to give black slight advantage
If he goes with 16...Rd2
An how can one say the black is not doing ok here?
Whites Major pieces are being tied down by Blacks Minor pieces.
At the moment the Bishop on b3 is not doing alot and the Rook on h8 is not doing alot. However, Soon black will castle than have the rook on h8 to use.
I can assure you of 1 thing that I have seen so far.
The reason the Sicilian O'Kelly varaition isn't played alot is not becuase of 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4.
I believe many players would start playing the O'Kelly more if their opponents played that continuation including me. I am not scared of playing the O'Kelly tranposed into a Najdorf with an active dark bishop.
I am sorry but that is just the way it is. I like having active pieces. You can tell me all you want to about how wonderful 4.Nxd4 is in this situation. Yet when you look at lines how can you say black is doing worse when his pieces are becoming active.
In the Najdorf your problem piece is the Dark bishop. In the French your problem piece is the Light Bishop.
When a piece is a problem piece. It is as if you are playing down a piece. Which is why players try to find solutions to try and get rid of their problem pieces.
I have not played the O'Kelly line. I will be the first to say it. Optimissed has asked me multiple times how many times I have played it. Yet even though I have not played the O'Kelly lines the line I see from databases by strong GM's and Computer Engines are lines. He has seen.
An when I look at them they make perfect sense on why they are making certain moves. An why certain moves are being played.
The reason the O'Kelly is not played alot is becuase of other move 3 choice's.
So people can say how 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 is so great and wonderful and playable yet it as issues.
Optimissed wrote:
You might try to write an intelligent post?
OK, The Dark Square Bishop becomes active outside of the pawn chain. Allowing black the opportunity to have every single one of his pieces active.
The characterization of the posistion is simply wrong.! White still has his development advantage, which is going to go away, so he plays: Nh2, intending a trade on g4, and after castles, Ng4 Nxg4, hxg4, White will have more space after an a4 push, and more importantly, the only pawn break in the position. Because of the latter factor, white has all the chances.
"OK, The Dark Square Bishop becomes active outside of the pawn chain. Allowing black the opportunity to have every single one of his pieces active."
And White has passive pieces? No, he doesn't!
bangalore2 wrote:
The characterization of the posistion is simply wrong.! White still has his development advantage, which is going to go away, so he plays: Nh2, intending a trade on g4, and after castles, Ng4 Nxg4, hxg4, White will have more space after an a4 push, and more importantly, the only pawn break in the position. Because of the latter factor, white has all the chances.
Even though 0-0 is playable and position is considered equal.
I believe black has better than castle with 18...Nh5 and black is slightly better. Tis a juicy f4 square is it not?
Which 20th move you want Qc4? or Qf3?
bangalore2 wrote:
"OK, The Dark Square Bishop becomes active outside of the pawn chain. Allowing black the opportunity to have every single one of his pieces active."
And White has passive pieces? No, he doesn't!
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why did white play 10.Qd3? or 17.Re1? He does have passive pieces. However, So does black!!
Yet that is not the issue. The issue is normally white has 1 more active piece than black because the Dark Bishop is passive on e7. In this game black has got rid of his problem piece. For 1 of whites good pieces.Which means all blacks remaining pieces will become active. The reason we know they will be active is becuase they normally are active.
Optimissed wrote:
The way I play the O'Kelly, I almost always get both bishops active without needing to compromise my pawn structure with e5. And the bishops are more active because one of them isn't blocked by the pawn on e5. If you were here to learn, you might, er ... learn something.
You have not showed anything to help anyone learn. You just talk about showing people stuff. An discredit what other people show with out given an continatuion of your own.
I honestly don't know why you have such a hatred of playing the move e5. It is a very common move in many Sicilian lines. It also comes with tempo. It is a center pawn move. It stakes some center control. It surely is not a bad move.
Optimissed wrote:
Sometimes the pawn remains on d7.
Oh Help us today with Optimissed brothers and sisters
We have been looking at variations over 7 pages 100 post deep on this forum. An all this while Optimissed has been playing a Sicilian Kan!
WHAT?
The Sicilian Kan is a very respectable line played against the Open Sicilian's and he has been tranposing into it.
lol You could of just told us that a long time ago Optimissed.
May 9, 2015
0
#72
I don't blame Optimissed for getting confused about the Kan/Paulsen/Taimanov systems, even masters don't agree on which lines should be called which. For me, I tend to rely on Taimanov's distinctions since he's the one who created the Taimanov and wrote a book on it. Failing that, one could simply use ECO codes.
XPlayer, why not the obvious 19. g3? Also, envision an f4 break. White's pieces will then be prefectly positioned to take advantage of this; they are not passive, just preparing.
Ok. ehm. What a mess! xD
First: discussion about what is a retreat is really pointless....
Second: Now I do not get this discussion about ? O'Kelly or what?
X_PLAYER_J_X everybody knows that dark square bishop is in a different position, this b4 is for sure better. Yes this opening system is better that with Be7 - that is an obvious conclusion. But this is not winning for black lol. Theory cannot give winning positions without mistakes and there are not any. I understand the bishop is active, then doubled pawns - that is true, but also true is that d6 is weak. I have spoked to one of Polish masters today and he said this O'Kelly is nothing special. However blacks exchanges DSB for the knight on c3 white has tromendous pressure on d6 later in the game he said. I agree with this statement.
Optimmised and X_PLAYER_J_X: maybe you should play online chess games both colours each with this O'Kelly position? I am sure that will help you. ;)
Optimmised, you are right. Sorry for that valid analise.
and this is computer one:
some moves in brackets are my with the purpose to show why computer choose other moves
This whole time Optimissed has been critizing my analysis and variations/lines. Optimissed as also been bragging about his 20 years of experince in this mysterious line. The Mysterious line he plays.
An all this time he has been playing a Paulsen?
WHAT?
Frankly I don't care Kan/Paulsen/Taimanov they are all systems from like the same family I believe.
An than Optimissed trys to call me a TROLL for calling him out on this.
A Classic case of a chess.com forum poster who can dish it out to others but can not take it himself.
An I simply was trying to make a discussion on the moves Nf6 and e5. It has a very good score against 3.d4 and should be investigated.
An it doesn't matter how much investigation I do because it is obvious. Optimissed had his mind set from the very begin.
Borsuk3 wrote:
Ok. ehm. What a mess! xD
First: discussion about what is a retreat is really pointless....
Second: Now I do not get this discussion about ? O'Kelly or what?
X_PLAYER_J_X everybody knows that dark square bishop is in a different position, this b4 is for sure better. Yes this opening system is better that with Be7 - that is an obvious conclusion. But this is not winning for black lol. Theory cannot give winning positions without mistakes and there are not any. I understand the bishop is active, then doubled pawns - that is true, but also true is that d6 is weak. I have spoked to one of Polish masters today and he said this O'Kelly is nothing special. However blacks exchanges DSB for the knight on c3 white has tromendous pressure on d6 later in the game he said. I agree with this statement.
Optimmised and X_PLAYER_J_X: maybe you should play online chess games both colours each with this O'Kelly position? I am sure that will help you. ;)
The line we was talking about is the O'Kelly Variation.
However, It was getting tranposed into like a Najdorf Variation.
However, that is if white plays 3.d4 which databases believe its better for black.
Alternative move 3 responses seem to give white a better score from human database eyes it seems.
3.c3
3.c4
3.g3
3.d3
3.Nc3
All a few of them.
We did look at some of the 3.c3 line it looks like an alapin with tempo up in a way. FiveofSwords did say that a6 does get played by black which is interesting.
However, It does seem like black can go another route more like a French style of set up.
All in all, this is nothing but bluster and false claims where Xplayer is simply imagining that he is giving concrete evidence. The level of debate is so poor here I think this will be my last comment, unless something more worthwhile is said.
You was never unbais. An no matter what I tell you. You will never change your opinion. Evidence upon Evidence has been shown.
You yourself know exactly what the Najdorf looks like and you also know that the bishop is outside of the pawn chain which normally never happens.
An yet you dismiss this as if it is of little importance.
When pieces are given activity in which many cases they do not get. It is of value.
You are to worryed about the 1 knight and are not looking at the Bigger Picture.
Active pieces help checkmate an enemy king.
Beginners get taught when ever you have a bishop on the same color as your center pawns. That bishop is considered your bad bishop and if you can.
That is how you deal with bad bishops.
Stop thinking about the 1 white knight and start thinking about where blacks pieces go.
Blacks rooks go usually to C file to get active
Blacks Light Square bishop usually goes to e6 defending the d5 hole and helping to liberate the pawn push d5
Blacks knight on f6 helps pressure e4
Blacks knight on b8 usually goes to d7 and to either c5 or b6
Blacks queen goes on c7 in many Sicilian lines
The only black piece which suffers is the Dark bishop on e7. Its only job is to defend the d6 pawn and reroute one day or pray for a liberation.