When nothing is forced...

So what was your criticism of my post? Or did you forget that unimportant detail?

My posts aren't out of this world intelligent. He is pompous and can't handle criticism. I welcome criticism provided it actually means something, unlike the minor trolling you're attempting. Was that intelligent or unintelligent enough for you? You're creepy. How's that?

Well Optimissed how exactly do you plan on clamping down on blacks position.

If the C pawn's get doubled. Black will naturally attack them on the Open C file. For that is where he draws his counter play from in most game's.

You can't allow black to take all your pawn's? Your e4 pawn will be defense-less, Doubled C pawn's and A pawn.

These are sitting targets for the black position. The idea that white is clamping down sounds nice. How exactly can white clamp down though that is the real question.

Let me give an example. Again this move doesn't have to be played just an example to see the visual effect.

The below position is what we have been looking at.

Now I am going to insert a move again this is just an example move. White doesn't have to play this move and it isn't forced to be played. Just to demonstrate the situation. Lets say at move 8 white castles in this position. Which seems logical just to get king safety.

After white castles black plays a forcing move. Obviously after black plays the forcing move 8...Bxc3 white has to retake with the pawn otherwise he will be down a piece for no compensation.

I don't see no tactic to win the bishop any other way so the move 9.bxc3 seems like the only move here. I'm sure many would agree. After those exchanges black plays a very subtle quiet move. shown in the below position.

I than have this position blown up on a picture so we can observe it.

Notice the Red highlighted area the queen is gaining a tempo on the bishop directly hitting the bishop on c4.It develops a piece and targets something.

Notice the Yellow highlighted area if the bishop moves the queen is indirectly hitting the weak pawn on c3. In this position maybe the queen doesn't even have to be in a rush to take the c3 pawn.

I'm sure black would not want to go pawn snatching so early in the opening he can wait. The c3 pawn is a long term target which will remain a target. We are in no rush to take this pawn yet we can castle and develop normally and take this pawn at leisure

By keeping the pawn their for a little white it also restricts the dark bishop.

Notice the Green highlighted area the e4 pawn is being attacked at the moment. Losing a center pawn will offer no compensation for such a loss. At the present moment the black king is in middle of the board so its not a serious threat. However, it could be an issue later on if white ignores it.

What esle do we see in this position. Well the a2 and c2 pawns are isolated pawn's long term issues.

Lets notice some weak squares in the position.

Notice the Green arrows and Highlights in the position.

The c5 square and the c4 square are weak squares in this position. Why are they weak squares? Well to answer that question we should look at the yellow arrow's.

Notice the yellow arrows normally white has a pawn on b2 and can play moves like b3 or b4 driving away any piece that may go to c4 or c5. In this situation their is no B pawn so now those squares are permanently weak squares.

If a knight lands on c5 for example it can than target the e4 pressurizing it even further.

Well you might wonder why would a knight want to go on c4 or c5. Well how do you handle weak pawn's?

Every chess student usually gets taught on how to deal with Isolated weak pawn's. Restrain, Blockade, Destroy!

Restraining the pawn = stopping it from moving

Example:

Right now it is a weakness; however, if white starts pushing those pawns forward and trys to trade them off for other pawns they don't stay a weakness any more becuase they get traded off.

So we want to try and Restrain the pawn if we can. We want to try and keep it weak.

Blockading the pawn = putting something in front of the pawn

This is an improved verison of restraining bascially.

Example:

If we can we want to try and get a piece in front of that pawn to stop it from moving completely. Like a full stop for that pawn. The best piece in chess for blockading is considered to be a knight.

So notice the weak c4 and c5 squares if he can get a knight their Oh Boy those pawns are staying weak for the whole game.

Destroy the pawn = Getting rid of the pawn to be material up

Example:

Once the pawn can no longer move we want to build up pressure behind it. We want to try and double rooks or even in some cases Triple up to build extreme pressure on the pawn. Until we reach a point we move the blockader away and than destuction falls on the pawn.

It is safe to say that black has alot of long term targets/short term targets and has quite a bit of idea's in this position. He can focus on these issues for a good amount of time and if he is successful he can win the game.

However, we have to be objective Lady's and Gentlemen. We can't just dismiss white as completely lost here. We have to run under the assumption everyone has lied to us and we have to be objective in our view to this position. We was pretty hard on white that is for sure. However, we must now be hard on black.

Notice the green highlighted squares white has the bishop pair. This has to count as something. Having both bishop pairs is of value that is for sure. So that is a postive for the white position.

Notice the yellow highlighted squares. Well it does look like white is restraining the d5 square.

Remember what we learned before Restrain, Blockade, Destory.

It does seem like the e4 pawn, bishop, queen are Restraining effectively.

Notice the red highlighted square. The D6 pawn is a backward pawn. Can we target such a pawn. White has some weaknesses but black isn't full of sunshine. He has weaknesses too.

Now again I'm just looking from my own point of view rememeber everyone lies. They are lieing to us. Is this bad for white. We don't know. We are looking. What I can gather is yes black has a weakness and yes white has some weakness. However, if white was to go toe to toe with black who has more pawn weakness? This is how I am reading the position.

If both of them started to do long term plans right now on just targeting each others pawn's. Who would win? Well who has the most targets? Black! Black would win because he has more targets. Makes perfect sense in the world.

Well lets go back now. If black can win in a long term scrimmage than white shouldn't enter into that scrimmage. So what do I mean by that.

Well its simple. We was looking at long term positional targets that will forever be in the game from this position. We have decided we can not win in a long term positional match against black. Black will just bite at those weak pawns like a dog with a bone just gnawing away at them all game. Should we enter into a positional gnawing/biting match if we have less targets NO! We will run out of bones/food. We will starve to death. He will keep going taking pawns after pawns.

That is what a positional player does. They see a weakness and just gnaw/bite at it. Its like an annoying positional crush. They will crush you slowly by just targetting those weaknesses. Obviously white doesn't want to enter that battle. So what should white do here. Well if white can't play positionally than he has to play dynamically. This is how I am reading the position.

When I think of playing dynamically usually I always relate playing dynamically with open position's. Usually you play the most dynamical in an open position.

Now the reason I like to relate dynamical play with open position's is becuase it helps me rememeber a key thing. How do you get a open position? Answer: By exchanging off pawns/getting rid of pawns.

So it makes you look for pawn breaks. The best way to exchange off pawns or get rid of them is by causing pawn tension which is what a pawn break does. It hits a pawn and than you can try and take it to blast things open.

So the below picture.

It's kind of funny. People always ask how does Dynamical play relate to Positional play. Well you are seeing how it relates becuase I'm going to show you.

Notice how your positional weakness turn into a Dynamical strength.

White had a ruin pawn structure which was his positional pawn weakness. However, when you look at the c3 pawn. You say yes it is a weak pawn but now I have an active rook that can go on the Open B File. If whites pawn structure had been positional good the B file would be closed and he would Dynamically suffer. In this situation his positional pawn weakness is now his Dynamical strength.

See that? From the picture above with the Green arrow's.

Notice the Yellow arrow's.  What did I say a few mins ago. When you play Dynamically usually it happens in open position's. So to get the position open you look for pawn breaks. Now whites positional weak pawns become its Dynamic Battering Ram's.

When you play Dynamically you want to Push, Take, Open

Push the pawns = moving your weak pawns to try and get rid of them

Example:

If you have Doubled pawns, Weak pawns, Backward pawns you want to try and push them forward to try and get rid of them.

Take the pawns = causing pawn tension between your pawns and your opponents pawns

Example:

Usually they call this doing a pawn break in chess to try and cause tension between the pawns. Than in this situation you want to than take the pawns to try and open things up.

Open the position = removing the pawns from board

Example:

Trying to get rid of all the pawns to have nothing but a clear open board with just pieces.

Now think about it. If white puts his rook on the Open B file and lets say black trys to shut down whites rook by playing the pawn move b5(bascially having the rook hit the b5 pawn which is supported by the a6 pawn). Than white will try to push his little Battering Rams forward to hack away at the b5 pawn.

So when we look at this position what do we see white has open B file and he can try and push his weak pawns to try and blast things open. An since white has 2 bishops this will help his position become more active.

Now it is all relating.

Black wants to Restrain, Blockade, Destory

White wants to Push, Take, Open

An that seems to be the real issue here. Can white generate enough Dynamic play to win vs his Positional challenger.

Again this is how I am interpreting the position. I am trying to remain unbias.

I will tell you what an chess database thinks in this position and what a chess computer engine thinks in this position.

The Chess Database show's black has won a game in this position. This seems to be the only game I have found from this resulting position. So it is a chess line untraveled

The ELO ranking I set this to was 2200+ and higher only.

This game was played between Janosik, Gyorgy (  ranking 2235) and Timar, Zsolt( ranking 2250).

The game was played in 1991 

The event is named Kobanya, Kobanya

Opening line name: Sicilian Defense, O'Kelly Variation, Normal System (B28)

This was the game that was played by those 2 players

In the Above Picture. I had The Chess Engine shows 3 possible moves here:

Chess Depth I set it to is Depth 27

1- 10.Qd3

Evaulation of the move equal = (-0.04)

2- 10.Bb3

Evaulation of the move equal = (-0.28)

3- 10.Bd5

Evaulation of the move slight advantage black =/+ (-0.43)

The picture above shows the position for white with the move 10. Qd3 which I have highlighted with the red arrow.

Again this is the resulted position if white plays 8. 0-0

Which I have stated from way above previously that is not forced to be played. It was just an example of course.

If you believe my perspection of the position is incorrect. I am more than happy to discuss it. However, their does seem to be some danger here for sure.

Awesome posts X_Player.

seconded.

You seems to have two alters now telling us how good you are. Why go to all that trouble to pass off this as analysis?

White played some awful moves there./ It would probably have helped to play a4, btw. But in general it is not this variaton that has stopped me playing ...e5. It was due to a game I played in which the retreat was Nb3. This is far more solid for white. I followed the recommended procedure for playing ...d5, given as "at least equalising" and found that it didn't equalise. It was online chess, Chess.com. I put in a lot of thought and may have got away with a win or draw, not sure, but I was definitely worse after following a GM's advice which I had memorised previously. This is when I realised for definite that the assessments are incorrect in this variation. I had been experimenting, wondering if my own assessments were incorrect.

Incidentally, I would read the rubbish you write with more enjoyment if you could observe one or two niceties of the English language, such as NOT constantly employing apostrophes in plurals please. Or, as you would put it, apstrophe's in plural's. It looks ugly, spoils reading enjoyment and puts the reader right off. Thanks.

Specifically, the move Rd5 was stupid. Also, white has no need to deliberately invite the doubling of his pawns. He can play Q d3 earlier, for instance. However, playing a4 would seem to make sense, as would not playing Rd5. In general, there's nothing actually wrong with Bd2 in these positions, provided white is actually to gain a useful tempo with a3. Let's face it ... what I wrote about these positions being relatively unexplored is correct.

eat your jelly tots and be quiet.

Save me the lime & the lemon ones....could you ? ....and TY Rowntree........!

Guys! I am glad that topic I've posted grabs so much attention(doesn't matter you are disscusing an opening not an idea which I ask about).

There is no need to agrue, and please stop doing that(do not say you are not arguing, maybe you do not want to, bot this is how it look like) X_PLAYER_J_X and Optimissed. I am sure you are both very experienced chess players and both has lots of experience with this positions, but please be more kind and specify thoughts and ideas.

Ramona-Carbona, stop these rude comments, please. Write something which is related to the topic instead.

Awesome analysises X_PLAYER_J_X! They are fantastic becouse you are explaining how you are thinking and everything in perfectly logical in my opinion. Unfortunately, I have never played this positions(nobody have played 1. ... c5 2. ... a6 in response for my 1.e4 ), so maybe I do not fully understand this things.

You are right that computers do not like 3.d4. SCID is suggesting something like Nc3,d3 or c3. I found 2 games which includes these kind of positions in my database:

Stanojoski, Zvonko(2502) - Kurajica, Bojan(2540) [15th Croatian Open A ; Zadar, Croatia ; 2008.12.17] In that game white played 6.Nb3(not Nf3). Black won that game becouse of white blunder which arrives as a result of cramped position.

Onischuk, Vladimir(2563) - Romanov, Evgeny(2616) [8th Govenor's Cup ; Khanty-Mansiysk, Russia ; 2012.11.21] In that game white played 5.Bd3 with 5. ... e5 6.Nb3 to follow. As a result of delaying Nc3 white managed to play c4 early. Game was drawn after 45 moves and interesting battle.

Now what I think about 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6:

Personally, I don't care what black sicilian system is(I am concidering only resonable moves not g5,f5 or something like that), I always play 3.d4 in response(except 2. ... d5 then 3.exd5 of course) no matter what computers are saying, no matter what chess databases are saying, even no matter what GM's are saying - I am playing 3.d4 and I will be playing that(unless my style would change ). You ask why? Because I cannot sit still with 3.d3. In my games something is gona happen, and this would directly challenged my opponent, doesn't matter he can punch me back - I will punch him back in response!

The analyses may well be awesome but they don't help since too much is ignored, so they aren't really very helpful. I've been trying to get Xplayer to be systematic if he thinks he can refute an idea. I want to be convinced. I want to see that the analysis is convincing and well thought out. This cannot be so when poor continuations are constantly being given. If I were faced with players who made these moves, of course I'd be playing e5. But the reality is that they often play very well.An 1800 can easily play at 2200 level. It's consistency that's the problem.

<<<<<That is what a positional player does. They see a weakness and just gnaw/bite at it. Its like an annoying positional crush. They will crush you slowly by just targetting those weaknesses. Obviously white doesn't want to enter that battle. So what should white do here. Well if white can't play positionally than he has to play dynamically.>>>>>

This is simply nonsense. WHY doesn't white want to play positionally against e5?

Regarding the position in post #5, Borsuk, I'd be playing 43 ... Rg8 and trying to push the pawn. It may be winnable for black. What does white do? I think that Q c8 was the losing error since it makes the Q too passive.

Why nonsense? If I am understanding it right there are many weaknesses in whites position - mainly pawns on c-file. In this case dynamic in my opinion means that fast c4 and a4 have to be played and active moves have to be done. If not, then slow dying with constant pressure on the c-file...

Different idea is to create counterplay on its own and assalut d6(which has to be done, but maybe not faster than securing own weakness). Probably this is also enough to have equal but dynamic and interesting game. 

I have to point out that at the beginning the board is calm and starting position is absolutely equal. It is natural for chess that first move means that player wants to win the game, but reality is that if good moves are played the game is a draw. So it is not essential for me to say about high of computer evaluation when both(or a few) moves are good. For me logical is to play what you like and understand - then you can easily draw if your opponent will play correctly or win if he will make a mistake, becouse you know what is going on, even if you are playing as white and computer evaluation is below 0, but higher than -0,5.

Essential thing is that you play what you LIKE and UNDERSTAND!

Yeah. I played Qc8 becouse I was affraid that he can fork my poor king and either of my pawn with his queen, and I do not know what to do, since I evaluated Rg8 as not so good, becouse he can blocade that pawn while attacking other pawns. Also I prefered my rook on the open file to throw a check anytime he dreams of moving his rook forward.

I don't like the positions for black after e5. They start off looking ok for black but you have to hope white blunders to a greater extent than normal because against solid play black can't force a win and he's always slightly on the back foot. White can maintain a tiny edge forever if he's good. I've never won such a game and concluded that I won it because I played well. After e5 white has three continuations. Only two of these have been examiined and yet the third is the most positionally solid of them all. That's the retreat to f5, which is normally ignored because it allows an immediate ...d5.

Regarding your game, how would you reply to Rg8 as white? Do you think white can win it?

I do not think that white can win that, but I felt this will be more pleasant for white.

I was waiting for some blunder from him.

Sorry. Position when I write that can be a draw white should play: 13.b4 Rxc2 14.Kb3 and regain the pawn.

NO I don't have 2 alter's only 1.

I would love to make a chess video explaining the different moves and talking about them. However, I can't becuase I don't have a camera or anything etc. All I can do is make forum post. However, even they take alot of time. Took me over 5 hours to do that other post and all it was based on was 1 move.

I tryed to show you the problem's. The problems are the dark square bishop is outside of the pawn chain threating to trade itself off for the knight on c3.

This problem will never go away no matter where the other knight on d4 goes Nf3, Nb3, Nf5. The King knight is off little importance in this position.

The Black Dark Bishop is always on e7 in many normal Najdorf cases. It is also very passive on e7. Here it simply is not so no matter what white does black has gotten a better position than normal becuase of his more active bishop piece.

Thanks very much for your efforts. At least eveybody is finding your posts interesting.