World's Biggest Question?

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Bur_Oak
Hammerschlag wrote:

Why does the Knigth move they way it does?


Some pieces can attack others while not simultaneously attacked themselves. A bishop attacking a rook is not in danger of capture by the rook. A rook attacking a bishop is similarly immune. The queen can attack almost everything which attacks her. Chess needed a piece which could attack her with impunity, and as someone pointed out on a different thread, the squares closest to a queen which are not available to her are a knight's move away.

Now, why do people find it necessary to try to draw correlations between archaic piece names and their moves on a board?

Hammerschlag
Bur_Oak wrote:
Hammerschlag wrote:

Why does the Knigth move they way it does?


Some pieces can attack others while not simultaneously attacked themselves. A bishop attacking a rook is not in danger of capture by the rook. A rook attacking a bishop is similarly immune. The queen can attack almost everything which attacks her. Chess needed a piece which could attack her with impunity, and as someone pointed out on a different thread, the squares closest to a queen which are not available to her are a knight's move away.

Now, why do people find it necessary to try to draw correlations between archaic piece names and their moves on a board?


 Actually I understood why...my question was not a real question, it was in response to the OP question. I was just having a little fun. Wink

chessroboto
paul211 wrote:
When my dryer is on, it is the centrifugal force that moves the clothes outward and the gravity that lets them drop to the bottom over and over gain to dry them.  So what would you call thie force then? 

Effective force! Wink

ivandh

I call it the gremlin that steals my socks

Eebster
Bur_Oak wrote:

(Also, while it hasn't come up, never say "centrifugal force" to a physicist unless you want to sound like an idiot. There is no such thing.)


Fictitious forces still exist.

Consider: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force

Also look at LaGrangian mechanics which looks at the world from generalized coordinate systems, and therefore fictitious forces are treated basically the same as inertial forces.

Finally, check out Einstein's theory of general relativity which states that acceleration is equivalent to a gravitational field, and therefore any accelerated reference frame can be treated as an inertial reference frame in the appropriate gravitational field. In any of these cases, the cetrifugal force exists.


Moreover, the reactive centrifugal force is merely the reaction to a cetripetal force, and therefore absolutely exists in inertial reference frames.

Consider: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force

 

 

paul211 wrote:

Bur_Oak Post #92.

Wrote: "Also, while it hasn't come up, never say "centrifugal force" to a physicist unless you want to sound like an idiot. There is no such thing."

It is not because that one cannot explain something that it does not exist. Science over the centuries have come up with explanations of phenomenons unexplained to the time they came up with theories to explain.

When my dryer is on, it is the centrifugal force that moves the clothes outward and the gravity that lets them drop to the bottom over and over gain to dry them.  So what would you call thie force then? 


I don't think you understood his objection. In a dryer, it is actually the combination of friction with the sides, a centrifugal force, and random collisions that create pressure on the walls. There might also be some static clinging.

Bur_Oak

Geez.

In the dryer, the clothes are set in motion. It starts with gravity holding them to the bottom, and friction allowing them to be set in motion once the drum begins to move. Once moving, according to Newtonian mechanics, they will continue in uniform, straight line motion unless acted upon by some force. The force in the dryer is provided by the wall of the drum changing the direction, deflecting the path of the clothes toward the center (a force 180 degrees opposite to the mythical centrifugal force) -- centrepital acceleration. (Remember that acceleration is a vector quantity, like velocity. It has two components: magnitude and direction.  If magnitude remains constant, but the direction is altered, that is an acceleration.) There is nothing pushing the clothes outward, only inward! If the dryer were to magically cease to exist in an instant, the clothes would fly off in a straight line tangent to the now vanished drum (unless or until acted upun by another force, such as gravity). If centrifugal force existed, they would fly off radially.

Try it (preferably in a large open field!) with a small weight tied to a string. You could not whirl it in a circle, let go, and have it travel in a radial path. The path will always be tangential to the original orbit. Where did the centrifugal force go? The momentum is still there. You stopped the centrepital acceleration. The CF is nowhere to be found, since it never existed in the first place.

PoisonDonut
paul211 wrote:
Hypocrism wrote:
Bur_Oak wrote:

"Just will not agree with you as you have absolutely no convincng physics arguments or proof of what you are advancing."

It doesn't require argument or proof. It's a definition. "Light year" is a unit of distance, period. Learn it.

"Did you ever consider outside of physics and all of the theories that it takes time to travel a distance?"

Of course it takes time to travel a distance. Nowhere did I dispute that. But the time it takes your friend to walk from his house to yours is not a factor in the distance. A meter is a meter. A mile is a mile. A light year is a light year. Anything or anybody travelling that distance, or the time it takes to do so may be relevant to them or it, but it is entirely irrelevant to the distance. You are adding something else to the equation and claiming it fundamentally alters a constant. Ridiculous.


Can we just resolve this by saying that the distance in light years between our planets will be the number of years it takes for us to communicate our moves?

 

Incidentally I was interested about gravity changing light's direction and wavelength, but not altering its speed. The speed of light can be changed by going through material, why can gravity not slow light?


 This is a very acute question and I had to do research to try to give a full explanation.

The gravitational waves (assume they are waves, and that they exist as such) would be of extremely long wavelengths.  As a consequence, the virtual particles would not act as a barrier to them any more than dust particles act as a barrier to infrared light.  Therefore it may well be that if gravitational waves exist; their speed will be that of the original speed of light and not the speed of light now. 

What is gravity?  We think of it as the attraction of one MASS to another, but it is rather the effect of electromagnetic fields sent out by charged particles in motion (due to the battering of the ZPE).  Thus, the denser the mass, the more charged particles are there, the more motion they exhibit, the denser the electromagnetic field.  This is the attractive force we perceive as gravity.  As a result, this greater electromagnetic field will produce a greater number of virtual particles at any one time in any given volume.  Thus light is slowed even more in these areas and we then see it as gravity 'bending' light.  What we are actually seeing is light which is slowed more than normal in local denser fields of the ZPE. 

Gravity affects the speed of light by a very small amount.

Gravitational force, or gravity, is the mutual attraction between all masses in the universe. Most scientists assume that gravity travels at the speed of light, which is actually the propagation speed of electromagnetic waves (such as light) in a vacuum. The speed of light is a physical constant equal to exactly 299,792.458 kilometers per second.

Gravity is caused by the mass-energy density of space. This mass-energy density of space is determined by the square of the Wave-Amplitude and is always positive (squares are always positive). The Wave-Velocity is inversely proportional to the square root of the mass-energy density of space, the higher the mass-energy density of space, the slower the Wave-Velocity. As Matter and its resultant mass-energy density of space are always positive, this causes a slowing of In-Waves as they travel through other matter/wave-motions, and it is this property of Space that causes the natural ‘Gravitational’ attraction of all bodies, and explains why Gravity is always attractive.

Thus we realize that the presence of another ‘particle’ (as the Wave-Center of a Spherical Standing Wave/electron) will add to the density of space and slow down and thus distort the in-waves.  Part of the in-wave near the other particle will travel slower. Thus the slower part will cause the center of the in-wave to continually move. We will observe this as motion of the ‘particle’ though it is actually caused by a succession of wave-centers forming in different locations in Space. Slowing occurs because the presence of the waves of the other particle increases the mass-energy density of space. This increase is very slight compared the whole density of Space which is determined by the sum of the waves of all the matter in our Hubble Universe This Mass-energy density of space rule is Principle Two, an extended version of Mach's Principle. The small effect of one particle is the reason why gravity is such a small force - that is, about 10^-40 times smaller than the electric force.

Now You Understand the Origin of Gravity. That is it! Gravity is a result of the slowing of the In-Waves causing the wave center to move towards other Wave-Centers. Gravity has been touted as the most puzzling of the forces. Indeed, before the Wave Structure of Matter was discovered there were no explanations of gravity, only speculations. Millions of research dollars have been, and still are being spent trying to find 'gravitons', a mythical particle similar to the 'photon' which supposedly carried energy like a pack horse between two particles. In fact we now realize that this fundamental concept of motion is the cause of all the forces in nature. This is logical thinking because the motion concept contains the meaning of force.

Is there gravity in space?

There is gravity in space... only it's very, very small. It's called "microgravity" because it is so small. Gravity affects everything, everywhere, although in space it is usually such a small effect that it can be ignored.

Is Light Affected By Gravity?

Is light affected by gravity? If so, how can the speed of light be constant? Wouldn't the light coming off of the Sun be slower than the light we make here? If not, why doesn't light escape a black hole?

Yes, light is affected by gravity, but not in its speed. General Relativity (our best guess as to how the Universe works) gives two effects of gravity on light. It can bend light (which includes effects such as gravitational lensing), and it can change the energy of light. But it changes the energy by shifting the frequency of the light (gravitational redshift) not by changing light speed. Gravity bends light by warping space so that what the light beam sees as "straight" is not straight to an outside observer. The speed of light is still constant.

Dr. Eric Christian


 

My cat's name is Mittens.

Tyzer
Bur_Oak wrote:
tyzebug wrote:
... technically there is, in some sense; though only if you use a moving reference frame (i.e. the reference frame of the object moving in a circle).

Technically, there isn't. What arises is a perception problem from an improperly chosen frame of reference. It's like constructing a model of the universe with Earth as the fixed frame of reference, and trying to come up with equations that explain how the entire universe can revolve around it every 24 hours without flying apart.

The object moving in a circle has its motion defined in a frame of reference not its own. In that frame of reference, which is the only one that can properly explain its motion, centrifugal force is a myth. The only factors are momentum and centripetal acceleration -- the deflection of the object inward.

 


Not exactly. After all, what can you consider to be an "improper" frame of reference? Just because a frame of reference is accelerating doesn't make it "improper" (though it certainly does tend to play havoc with most calculations). While we're working within Newtonian mechanics though, a frame of reference moving in a circle is reasonable and can help simplify calculations. You just need to add "fictitious forces" when working with an accelerating reference frame; and centrifugal force is one of these fictitious forces. I believe I saw a link earlier.

Case in point, pulled from xkcd forums: Ballistic calculations over long ranges (e.g. artillery shots) on a rotating Earth. Trying to do them from a "stationary" frame of reference is quite a headache (not to mention it doesn't account for Earth's translational movement through space; thereby undermining the claim that it's the "proper" frame of reference to use. Then again, most methods don't account for it...I presume the effect is small). Instead, just transform your coordinates to the Earth's rotating reference frame, add the centrifugal force and Coriolis force terms to your calculations, and voila! Away you go.

Though I guess on a certain level this is arguing semantics...and I guess one point is that "centrifugal force" is perhaps a misnomer, in that it's not exactly a force by the strict definition of the word (rather, it's a "fictitious force" as mentioned above). Perhaps "centrifugal effect" may have been a better term. (Then again, forces themselves are actually purely a mathematical construct (originating from the basic ideas of Newtonian mechanics) and don't actually "exist" either when you get down to it...solve your situations with Lagrangian or Hamiltonian mechanics and forces won't even appear.)

TL;DR: Perhaps the point I've been rambling towards is that while "centrifugal force" certainly isn't a force by the Newtonian-mechanics definition of the word, you can't exactly say that it's a myth or that it "doesn't exist" as a physics concept either; given that it is no more or less ethereal and insubstantial than the Newtonian concept of forces in the first place.

rooperi

Eebster
Bur_Oak wrote:
Blah blah blah. There is nothing pushing the clothes outward, only inward!

I like the sound of my voice.


And yet the clothes are pushing outward on the dryer.

/discussion

House-of-Usher

How many squares must a pawn walk down,

before you can call him a King?

Tyzer
Eebster wrote:
Bur_Oak wrote:
Blah blah blah. There is nothing pushing the clothes outward, only inward!

I like the sound of my voice.


And yet the clothes are pushing outward on the dryer.

/discussion


I'd hesitate to say that, really. The clothes are pushing on the dryer only in the sense that a piece of paper flattened onto an accelerating car's windshield is "being pushed" onto it. Assuming the surrounding is vacuum, there is no actual force keeping it there...though as you pointed out previously, from the car's frame of reference there is a fictitious force keeping it there.

Eebster
tyzebug wrote:
Eebster wrote:
Bur_Oak wrote:
Blah blah blah. There is nothing pushing the clothes outward, only inward!

I like the sound of my voice.


And yet the clothes are pushing outward on the dryer.

/discussion


I'd hesitate to say that, really. The clothes are pushing on the dryer only in the sense that a piece of paper flattened onto an accelerating car's windshield is "being pushed" onto it. Assuming the surrounding is vacuum, there is no actual force keeping it there...though as you pointed out previously, from the car's frame of reference there is a fictitious force keeping it there.


If the wall is pushing on the clothes and the clothes are not pushing on the wall, we violate Newton's third law.

But that isn't the case. The centripetal force (in addition to gravity and friction) acts on the clothes and the reactionary centrifugal force acts on the dryer wall. This simple action-reaction pair is just a normal force caused by the collision of the clothes and the wall.

ChessMarkstheSpot

I thought the world's biggest question was "Why are we here?"  Smile But what do I know

Bur_Oak
Eebster wrote:

... and the reactionary centrifugal force acts on the dryer wall. ...


No ... it's simply the inertia of the clothes. They are there already, and trying to travel in a straight line. They are being pushed in. There is nothing pushing them out.

artfizz
ChessMarkstheSpot wrote: I thought the world's biggest question was "Why are we here?"  But what do I know

... to play chess & to mess about in the forums. (Not that big a question; it IS a chess site, after all.)

ChessMarkstheSpot

  LOL artfizz, that it is. I don't do much else every day than play chess(except maybe CIV 3  LOL)

Eebster
Bur_Oak wrote:
Eebster wrote:

... and the reactionary centrifugal force acts on the dryer wall. ...


No ... it's simply the inertia of the clothes. They are there already, and trying to travel in a straight line. They are being pushed in. There is nothing pushing them out.


There is a contact force between the clothes and the dryer. If a car hits me while coasting, it imparts a force on me. It wasn't experiencing a force toward me, it was just coasting because of inertia. But it still imparted a force on me.

You seriously cannot argue Newton's third law. It is a law.

Look at the link I provided for the reactive centrifugal force.

Also, obligatory xkcd reference: http://xkcd.com/123/.

Bur_Oak
Eebster wrote:
Bur_Oak wrote:
Eebster wrote:

There is a contact force between the clothes and the dryer. If a car hits me while coasting, it imparts a force on me. It wasn't experiencing a force toward me, it was just coasting because of inertia. But it still imparted a force on me.

You seriously cannot argue Newton's third law. It is a law.


The only forces working are momentum (90 degrees to the non-existant CF) and centripetal acceleration (180 degrees opposite). The net imbalance is what is responsible for the continuous change of direction. If there were an equal counterbalancing force, there should be no change of direction. Centrifugal force plus uniform circular motion? THAT is what would violate Newtonian laws.

If there was a centrifugal force, where the heck did it come from? We can explain the momentum, since the object(s) have been set in motion. The centrepital acceleration is obvious. But the mythical force has no origin; no formula that can account for it and the momentum and the centrepital acceleration.

Eebster
Bur_Oak wrote:
Eebster wrote:
Bur_Oak wrote:
Eebster wrote:

There is a contact force between the clothes and the dryer. If a car hits me while coasting, it imparts a force on me. It wasn't experiencing a force toward me, it was just coasting because of inertia. But it still imparted a force on me.

You seriously cannot argue Newton's third law. It is a law.


The only forces working are momentum (90 degrees to the non-existant CF) and centripetal acceleration (180 degrees opposite). The net imbalance is what is responsible for the continuous change of direction. If there were an equal counterbalancing force, there should be no change of direction. Centrifugal force plus uniform circular motion? THAT is what would violate Newtonian laws.

If there was a centrifugal force, where the heck did it come from? We can explain the momentum, since the object(s) have been set in motion. The centrepital acceleration is obvious. But the mythical force has no origin; no formula that can account for it and the momentum and the centrepital acceleration.


Since you are clearly no longer reading my posts, I took the liberty of skimming yours.

The reactive centrifugal force is acting on the walls of the dryer, not on the clothes. Since you have repeatedly ignored my call to Newton's third law, perhaps you could read about that, too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion#Newton's_third_law

More importantly, you clearly have no conception of non-inertial frames of reference, so you obviously won't understand a force that only exists in those reference frames.


I promise you that I did not make up the reactive centrifugal force and create a Wkipedia article and dozens of suck puppet accounts to maintain it, nor did I invient rotating frames of reference, fictitious forces, generalized forces, or the centrifugal force. If you refuse to read anything I give you, this conversation is pointless.