I don't like getting death threats

Sort:
Elubas
bigpoison wrote:

I was expecting a "Wow! I never thought of it that way." 

Silly me.

Well, anyway, I reckon if you kept slaves, you too, would arm yourself.

But I did think of it that way, lol. It's not really a revelation. I am still wondering if you know what it means to distinguish between debating over what someone said and whether or not they are right?

My final opinion on the matter is going to depend on analyzing lots of different points and counter points and trying to see what wins out, which I'm not yet sure about. My entire opinion is certainly not going to rely on merely what one or two people said. But, babytiger brought up this "interpretation" stuff, so I, and some others, responded.

Elubas

To be fair I guess some confusion might arise when one would claim "If you teleported Jefferson to now, gave him some time to adapt, he might hold a different view." Perhaps this is what you had in mind, bigpoison? It seems to overcomplicate things somewhat, so it never occurred to me to "interpret" old statements in such a way, but perhaps we were talking past each other. I was simply debating over whether or not he claimed that defense with guns is fine, not why he claimed it or whether he would still claim it in a different circumstance.

Again... when we start calling these hypothetical scenarios as part of an "interpretation" it gets really really speculative, not unlike questions of whether Lasker could travel to this time and beat the modern masters. At that point you might as well call it changing the law rather than calling it "reunderstanding the constitution," which I consider disingenuous. Like I said, one can make a fair point that being constitutional is not guaranteed to be desirable; I think some counter points could be made too, but it's a fair point.

johnmusacha

For the latest reputable work on violence in modern society compared to the eighteenth century (and beyond), check out Harvard psychologist Stephen Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" (2011), as well as Norbert Elias's classic volume, "Civilizing Process" (1939).

JamieDelarosa

Thank you for those references.  The 1939 volume may be hard to find.

corrijean

Amazon has it in stock.

It is a bit pricey, though. It looks interesting.

corrijean

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-crime-puzzle-violent-crime-declines-in-america/

zborg

This is more straight forward -- "like the stock market, it fluctuates."

Chart from same article above, but without the theory --

corrijean

The timespan doesn't address the late 1700's, though.

zborg

Understood.  But "societal violence" hardly equates with data on murder rates.  How do you compare "wars," againsts stats on murder and robbery?  I don't have the foggiest.

But I'm certain that people were very well armed in Colonial America, and that many Americans are still well armed, today.

corrijean
zborg wrote:

Understood.  But "societal violence" hardly equates with data on murder rates.  How do you compare "wars," againsts stats on murder and robbery?  I don't have the foggiest.

But I'm certain that people were very well armed in Colonial America, and that many Americans are still well armed, today.

No doubt people in the US were and are well armed.

Personally, I like target shooting, both guns and bows. Don't own any, though, because I live in town and just don't need to. Wouldn't be against owning a gun or a bow, although I think parents might want to think twice. Growing up in the midwest, I knew a couple of kids that were killed accidentally by guns despite the fifth grade gun safety classes. 

He does state that "interpersonal violence of all sorts" dropped in similar fashion.

zborg

Indeed, crime stats show U.S. violence dropping since (say) the crack epidemics.

But you would never know it from how they report crime on the 11:00 pm News Shows, or depict it on the TV series 24.

default_avatar
JamieDelarosa wrote:

True, I am talking about personal defense, rather that organized conflict such as war.

This sums up in a nutshell the attitude which allows Americans to feel manifest destiny and bomb the shit out of other countries and strip them of their resources like milking a cow and then rant and rave about personal defense.  Cognitive dissonance.

zborg

Sir, you sorely need to take that broom out of your arse.

JamieDelarosa
default_avatar wrote:
JamieDelarosa wrote:

True, I am talking about personal defense, rather that organized conflict such as war.

This sums up in a nutshell the attitude which allows Americans to feel manifest destiny and bomb the shit out of other countries and strip them of their resources like milking a cow and then rant and rave about personal defense.  Cognitive dissonance.

This is a number for an anger management hotline:

SafeHorizon 1-800-621-HOPE

default_avatar

Q.E.D.

JamieDelarosa

You need help, troll.  Call.

zborg

At least now he's being concise in his comments.  He removed the broom ?

JamieDelarosa

Troll, why don't you tell me what is causing your anger toward the site, me, Americans, whatever?  Let's use your short time here for positive purposes.

trysts

I'd leave out the Americans part, JamieLaughing

JamieDelarosa

I would really like to understand his motivation.

Hatred eats away at a person.  It's best to start talking it out.  Even if he wants to do it by private message.

This forum topic has been locked