No mating material = Draw

Sort:
chessmasters2004
omnipaul wrote:

If you're talking about this game (http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=46491769), I'm afraid that your opponent does have mating material.  According to FIDE rules, if a helpmate is possible, then mating material exists.  Your opponent may just have a knight and a king, but that pawn you have makes a big difference.  It is possible (and I'm not saying that you would actually do this, it just needs to be possible) that you could promote that pawn to a bishop and allow the following position to occur:

Sorry, but your slight misunderstanding of the appropriate rules has cost you this game.  The good news is that now you know better, and may avoid the same fate in future games.

He said white has NO PRACTICAL WINNING CHANCES. 

Not necessarily no help mate, lad, but PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE- why would anyone want to help mate? Running a knight all over the board in hopes of a flag is disgraceful, disgusting and should be prevented.

4xel
chessmasters2004 wrote:
omnipaul wrote:

If you're talking about this game (http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=46491769), I'm afraid that your opponent does have mating material.  According to FIDE rules, if a helpmate is possible, then mating material exists.  Your opponent may just have a knight and a king, but that pawn you have makes a big difference.  It is possible (and I'm not saying that you would actually do this, it just needs to be possible) that you could promote that pawn to a bishop and allow the following position to occur:

Sorry, but your slight misunderstanding of the appropriate rules has cost you this game.  The good news is that now you know better, and may avoid the same fate in future games.

He said white has NO PRACTICAL WINNING CHANCES. 

Not necessarily no help mate, lad, but PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE- why would anyone want to help mate? Running a knight all over the board in hopes of a flag is disgraceful, disgusting and should be prevented.

 

beautiful necro.

 

FIDE rules say that when the flag falls, if any sequence of move can lead to checkmate of the player who ran out of time, then this player loses, other wise, it is draw. Defining insufficient mating material otherwise would be making possibly false assumption about positions that can occur and level of play of the palyer (and you can't prohibit/ ignore troll level of play).

 

For such situation with no practical winning chance, like you write with nice cap, FIDE has an other rule, which states that a player can call an arbiter and claim a draw if his or her opponent makes clearly no attempt to win the game on board.

This rule encompasses any attempt to flag your opponent, and requires an arbiter.

 

 

Just to give two extreme example where this rule would be hard to subsitute by a machine :

 

Two knights vs a King and a pawn engame : sometime a theoretical win, sometime a theoretical draw. How do you tell whether the knight player is trying to force mate (one of the hardest, if not the hardest, sometimes more than 50 moves), and not jut flagging his opponent?

 

Rook versus Knight : theoretical draw in many situation. Technically, if the knight player get chaeckmated, it's an help mate, yet the position is so hard to play it's worth to play it.

 

And then you got some rare position where the outcome differs from what we would naturally expect by knowing just the material on board.

CoranMoran
CoranMoran wrote:

All other chess sites I have played on will automatically deem a game a draw if time runs out and the player who has time left has only one minor piece.
The logic for this is simple. The player with one Knight has no realistic winning chances.
I would consider the fact that this logic does not seem to be understood by this site to be a major knock.
The result is that players dancer their one remaining piece around the board pointlessly in hopes of winning on time in a clearly drawn game.

I assume that ommitting this rule was not an oversight and was done with a purpose.
Please enlighten me on the logic behind it.

These type of "annoyances" are enough to keep me from spending my limited chess funds on upgrading an account on this site.

--CM

 

It has been nearly 8 years since I made this post. I had felt like it had gotten a lot of well-deserved support. But I recently found myself in the same situation.

There was not enough material left to FORCE a mate. And yet the server did not rule it a draw. So my opponent simply declined my draw offers and moved around aimlessly. My only means of moving on and playing another game (or continuing any facet of my life) was to let my timer run out.  

I was very disappointed in the lack of progress of Chess.com on this issue.

--CM

 

 

Martin_Stahl

Which of your recent games are you talking about? The knight + rook vs rook? With increment, you would have to play that OTB as well, under both FIDE and USCF regulations, until a triple repetition or the 50-move rule occured and then the draw could be claimed. Or wait until 75 moves or 5-fold for the automatic draw (which may be implemented here, haven't seen for sure if that is the case.

Daarzyn7

I agree, with any games with increment you don't have to deal with this. If the game, however, is KR x KR and your opponent doesn't want draw, then you'd better report him for unfair play.

Rookgoesfirst

watch the last 5 moves of this tournament game: SMMchessplayer vs Opusalim where the player simply out played me but had the opportunity to checkmate me twice in the last five moves. I had only a king and he had a king and a queen. His time ran out, the possibility for him to checkmate me was there and he did not make the move to do so. How can the rules find that he has a lack of material to checkmate me? If his time runs out attempting to do so then he has lost 5/0 game in tournament mode. Hey, he outplayed me and could not achieve the checkmate opportunity twice, so how does he not have the material to checkmate? Somebody please explain this to me !!! confused!!

Martin_Stahl
SMMchessplayer wrote:

watch the last 5 moves of this tournament game: SMMchessplayer vs Opusalim where the player simply out played me but had the opportunity to checkmate me twice in the last five moves. I had only a king and he had a king and a queen. His time ran out, the possibility for him to checkmate me was there and he did not make the move to do so. How can the rules find that he has a lack of material to checkmate me? If his time runs out attempting to do so then he has lost 5/0 game in tournament mode. Hey, he outplayed me and could not achieve the checkmate opportunity twice, so how does he not have the material to checkmate? Somebody please explain this to me !!! confused!!

The rule is based on the material the side with time has. You only had a king and the best result you could ever get in the game is a draw as a line king can't checkmate. Your opponent had no time and can't win. The outcome in that situation is a draw due to insufficient material to win on time

Rookgoesfirst

Thanks for the explanation! ok it's based on the side with the time left. I got it now! Although I in my opinion the clock should govern who wins or loses at the end of the day, why even have a clock if it is not the 1# deciding factor! The clock should be at the top of the priority of who wins or loses. If all I have is a king and the opponent can't checkmate me before their time runs out, then is it really fair to draw after I have managed my time better than the other player or vice versa! Thanks for the explanation you explained it in a way that I can understand! You're a great scholar in the game!

Martin_Stahl

If it's impossible for mate to occur by a player with time, a player should never get the win. The goal of chess is mate and if mate's not possible, then you can't win.

There are some differences between OTB official rules and here on what counts as possible to mate, but a lone king is always a draw in such a case.

Battle_of_Ideas
ringwraith10 wrote:

is this insufficient material?

please take a good look at it, i've already sent it to chess.com support but a guy called josh says a helpmate is possible (although analysis has already been given

https://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=43193528

I am black, opponent is white

i would also like my points back

cant tell if you are joking or not. If Bishop takes pawn it would be draw, but you let promote that loses