Covid-19 Discussion (moderated)

Regardless of how it sounds - its what happens a lot of the time.
You get Covid.  You then get 'pneumonia'.  You die.
Regardless of how it 'sounds' a little thinking can clear that up for you right away.
Somebody's shot with a gun - but it doesn't kill him right away.
But he bleeds.  To death.
Are you going to say  "No the bullet didn't kill him.  He died of blood loss."  ?
Yes - pneumonia was around before Covid - but the truth of one thing doesn't necessarily negate the truth of another.
Blood loss doesn't need a bullet to kill you.
Are you going to try and argue that the pneumonia had nothing to do with the Covid ?
After getting Covid - there are other things that can arise from that - and then that can kill the host.

Illogic:   'We got vaccinated.  We got Covid or a variant of it.  We didn't die but we also got pneumonia too.  Survived and now have neither.'
1) Dangerous possible Misinterpretation 1): 
The vaccine 'didn't do' anything.
2) Dangerous possible Misinterpretation 2):
'Pneumonia was 'around' and existed in history before Covid - so therefore pneumonia 'couldn't' arise from Covid because that doesn't 'sound right'.
Such misinterpretation would be like saying blood loss couldn't arise from a bullet.
If one makes many illogical statements suggesting  A=B so C must be false
then even without intending that -
that triggers 'rumor psychology'.

Its related to 'pure empiricism'.
Overreacting to and misinterpreting data and graphs with little or no reasoning nor overview resulting in gross illogic and misinformation - rumoring.

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/modes-transmission-virus-causing-covid-19-implications-ipc-precaution-recommendations?gclid=Cj0KCQjw3v6SBhCsARIsACyrRAm44We1LzKoKWn7EFMgOc7Y5CLGZV1h1DOTMWkWbtOCCdnRLrLpcYQaAmkCEALw_wcB

Droplet transmission occurs when a person is in in close contact (within 1 m) with someone who has respiratory symptoms (e.g. coughing or sneezing,) and is therefore at risk of having his/her mucosae (mouth and nose) or conjunctiva (eyes) exposed to potentially infective respiratory droplets (which are generally considered to be > 5-10 μm in diameter). Droplet transmission may also occur through fomites in the immediate environment around the infected person. Therefore, transmission of the COVID-19 virus can occur by direct contact with infected people and indirect contact with surfaces in the immediate environment or with objects used on the infected person (e.g. stethoscope or thermometer).

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission as it refers to the presence of microbes within droplet nuclei, which are generally considered to be particles < 5μm in diameter, and which result from the evaporation of larger droplets or exist within dust particles. They may remain in the air for long periods of time and be transmitted to others over distances greater than 1 m.

In the context of COVID-19, airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures that generate aerosols are performed (i.e. endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation). 

"In other words - why would the spread of the viruses not be Very Much Worse without the various  measures including Vaccination?"

Well:

Senegal:

Population: 17.5M

Full vaccination rate: 8.7%

28-day cases: 140

28-day deaths: 25

Cases per million = 140/17.5M * 10^6 = 8

Deaths per million = 25/17.5M * 10^6 = 1.5

Senegal health measures: https://crisis24.garda.com/alerts/2022/03/senegal-authorities-maintaining-limited-covid-19-related-restrictions-as-of-march-11-update-30

Comparatively,

Australia:

Population: 26M

Full vaccination rate: 83.3%

28-day cases: 1.5M
28-day deaths: 1,059

Cases per million: 57,692

Deaths per million: 40.7

Australia health measures: https://crisis24.garda.com/alerts/2022/04/australia-western-australia-ends-some-covid-19-restrictions-as-of-april-14-update-62

Sources: 

John Hopkins research center

Wolrdometer

Both are mentioned in the OP as reliable sources.

Apparently, I am meant to see that the vaccine is doing a great job in reducing the spread of the virus, and I do not intend to.

'you're not going to contract the virus'

@btickler
Do you agree with that 'not going to' there ?
I could be 'technical' and say there's no link with it - 
But maybe there's 1000 Mercola and Raoult style links that would back up that claim.
Candidate for Covid misinformation there.
Not personal.  Not 'hounding' by me.
To find it fast - not just by the opening poster but anybody reading here:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?quote_id=68177427&page=179#comment-68177427

Its post # 179 on page -  post 3572.

It is typical to just go on about Raoult as if he's just one of those attention seekers who only care about spreading disinformation but in fact, he just shows official statistics -makes conclusions based on them and on the statistics in his hospital which by the way has saved one of the biggest number of people in France with regards to COVID care- that show that vaccination isn't as efficient as said and calls people to be reasonable. No conspiracy theories, no calls to stop vaccination, only evidence-backed and statistic-backed sayings. The controversy is around the use of alternate drugs when no official clinical trials have been made. But chloroquine was actually used for many other reasons and studies show some efficacity.

People who don't listen to what he actually says would find it easy to actually say that everything he says is disinformation.

As for the claim, it is backed by #3894 and #3898, and not by Raoult. Besides, actually bothering to read the whole conversation on page 179, the person that is being talked about would be vaccinated as well in this case. The debate was around vaccine passport systems/mandates and specifically the need of having all colleagues vaccinated.

In fact this followed, post by @Marie-AnneLiz:

"Yes you can if someone very close to you or your kids etc give it to you...most people got it right now in my province of 8.5 millions."

But the claim was about not catching COVID if guidelines are followed, the person is vaccinated and has an unvaccinated colleague in their department, which makes a huge difference compared to somebody 'really close'.

A whole bunch of posts have disappeared - with empty pages at the end.
This means that somebody in the forum has either deleted many posts - or that somebody in the forum or who was in the forum has been muted by chess.com.
Regarding  'you're not going to get Covid if ...'
Unless one is talking about quarantining - then statements like that are dangerous Misinformation at best.
Such Misinformation could cost someone their life or the life of a family member.
Covid Disinformation and Misinformation have already cost many lives.
Assertions that one will not get Covid in any situation other than quarantining - 'because one thinks so or because one believes people like Raoult and Mercola' or because one misinterprets empirical data are thoughtless - irresponsible - negligent - shallow and bereft of morality.

That article is woefully out of date.  We now know that surface transmission is lower than initially though, and airborne transmission is higher.  There's no guarantee of 6m being safe, nor has there ever been such a guarantee.  We now know that airborne transmission in indoor areas with poor ventilation or recycled air is more likely.  Masks protect others more than they protect the wearer...and since so many other people are not vaccinating and not wearing masks, vaccination is indicated.

https://www.cdc.gov/socialmedia/syndication/405380/404364.html

There are 45 pages of new and updated articles from the CDC at the above link, going back to January 2021.  Using a March 2020 article is not going to be nearly as accurate.

(1) I disagree.  Perhaps we have a different definition of "situations".  Posting some source of information and trying to discuss its validity is not a "situation"...it's what this thread is for.  Repeatedly posting misinformation once it is shown to be incorrect or unsupported is a problem.

(2) One post does not constitute hounding, hounding would be what you are continuing to engage in right now by calling on me to scrutinize Chamo even more than I am already doing for all posters.  Argue the points.  

(3) Yes, it is misinformation.  So, dispute it.  It's only repeated and willful posting of misinformation that I block for.  In each case Chamo has tried to document everything he is bringing up.  When some sources were debunked, he stopped using them.  As long as such progress exists, I don't have a problem.

    If you delete in THIS thread, I will ask Staff to block you. This is not a kids thread. 

Give the man his chance, it's a clean slate here (mostly...obviously I do use my knowledge of posters' histories to help me decide to take action sooner vs. later, etc. but everyone gets a chance to discuss the topic).

Ugh.  Well, here's a good example of the problem of habitually deleting posts...now it looks like RJC was talking to Chamo or Playerafar instead of GhostofNinja.

I've never doubted that you generally believe your posts to be true.

Definitely not over.  There are still 400 people dying every day in the US, for example.

It depends on your locale.  I am triple-vaccinated right now, and I still wear a mask when I go into a crowded grocery store, etc. but outdoors there's no mask mandate anymore.  A breakthrough infection once vaccinated is unlikely to kill you, but that doesn't mean it won't damage your lungs et al, so it's just practical...if you see a concentration of people that makes you go "hmmm", I would mask up.  Also check your state's deaths/1M pop...if your state is <2000, that's pretty good.  If your state is close to 4,000 and/or has a low vaccination rate, I would be a lot more wary.

Over 500 million total infections now worldwide since it started.  Over 40 million active cases right now.

Opening posters cannot 'delete' other people's posts in this thread.
Nor can other posters in the thread - unless they're Staff.
And Staff doesn't usually block anybody for forum purposes.

They can lock a thread - or mute a member throughout the website.
In which case all of that member's posts and PM's and forums where he or she is the opening poster disappear until he/she is un-muted.
They can delete an entire thread too. Or a post or word.
Regarding whether an opening poster can delete an entire thread (cannot delete individual posts by other members) - that varies I believe.  
To do so - the opening poster simply deletes the first post.
Post 1.  But he/she can only do that if the 'x' button is there.

By my reckoning there are only 8 out of 50 States with less than 2000 deaths/million population...

    Please don't tell me what you think you know about the forums playerafar. I've forgotten more about the forums than you know.                                                                    This comes directly from his doctor, and he doesn't know if its true or untrue.....   He's not gonna function any better in THIS thread then he did in other threads.  This thread is heavely monitored by Staff to deter from mis-truths in the medical profession. Its that way because this is the 4th variant of the original thread...."Is It Safe To Go Back To Tournaments Yet". If any doctor gives you medical advice and you're not sure if you should believe it.......  then you should not post it period.             I have no problem with the medical advice that was given by Ninja's doctor. What I don't like is his phrase....."IDK if its true or untrue".         Imagine that.    A man in his mid-50's talking to HIS doctor.....not some quack on T.V.  After 2 yrs of THIS pandemic, HE'S not sure who or what to believe!   Yeah, we need a lot more of that in all the forum threads.

This is utterly confusing why are posts being deleted? This person seems strange kind of.

Anyway, @btickler wrote: 

"That article is woefully out of date.  We now know that surface transmission is lower than initially though, and airborne transmission is higher.  There's no guarantee of 6m being safe, nor has there ever been such a guarantee.  We now know that airborne transmission in indoor areas with poor ventilation or recycled air is more likely.  Masks protect others more than they protect the wearer...and since so many other people are not vaccinating and not wearing masks, vaccination is indicated.

https://www.cdc.gov/socialmedia/syndication/405380/404364.html

There are 45 pages of new and updated articles from the CDC at the above link, going back to January 2021.  Using a March 2020 article is not going to be nearly as accurate."

Yeah well, I guess articles that date from back then shouldn't really be found on the first page of the google search. But anyway, I confess the wording "won't catch the virus" was wrong. But let's be fair, the point in that argument stands: Let's say somebody is vaccinated, is wearing a mask, people around them are wearing a mask, and distancing is respected. You mentioned in your post airbone transmission was higher if the room isn't well ventilated. But the guidelines I referenced do mention ventilation. Isn't the risk of catching COVID quite low to a point where one shouldn't really be worried if a minority of colleagues are unvaccinated at the workplace? Especially that in that same page (179), the fear of side-effects from the vaccine was called "irrational fear" when 0.02% have either died or gotten an extremely severe/life-threatening condition, so 2 every 10 000 doses, which isn't negligible, at all. 

Plus you also mentioned mortality caused by vaccination as a real comparison to COVID death risks which, as I underlined, was really low for the population of under 20s. I have some statistics, I'll need to make some extra research possibly to make an overall decent post.

Well I wouldn't necessarily blame the guy. He's sharing something that's up for debate: the medical advice also did not recommend "using masks and guidelines because they prevent this exposure and make variants stronger". Though masks and guidelines are recommended everywhere. Just a humble opinion though.

By the way, the US has all states on a population of 50+% fully vaccinated (almost)m somehow states are still in the thousands of deaths/million. Australia for instance, still has the cases but deaths have gone down a lot with their 83% fully vaccinated. On the other hand, Senegal, with 90% of the population running around unvaccinated is only at 8 cases per million and about 1.5 deaths per million of the population for the last 28 days, when in those same 28 days Australia was at about 50 000 cases per million. 

Hypothetical justifications? Maybe health measures? Senegal's aren't abnormal in any way https://crisis24.garda.com/alerts/2022/03/senegal-authorities-maintaining-limited-covid-19-related-restrictions-as-of-march-11-update-30.

It's the case for most African countries too. Low vaccination rate, but also a well-controlled epidemic.