Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Avatar of Optimissed
MustangMate wrote:

Randomness being defined as something that can’t be predicted.  

All I can dooo is briefly shake the ole noggin. How trite. Such limited thinking leads exactly to this point. 

Can we talk about specifics, such as a series of events? The events could be almost anything, like the chances of meeting a girl you like (and whose daddy is rich) at the local monastery. It's just as easy to call them numbers and the numbers could stand for any type of events.

So, we can have a series of events, such as the days of the week. In their normal order, they aren't random. If they were random, we'd be confused. So what would a random series of weekdays look like? Once you had got past the normal MTWTFSS order, and noted that wasn't being followed, but the girl you met at the monastery asked you out and said "meet me on Wednesday at the bend in the river nearest where the Font flows into the Wansbeck at one minute past midnight, and bring a spare fast horse", you'd need to predict which day was going to be Wednesday, right? So you look for patterns in the list of days of the week that have happened so far to try to pinpoint the next Wednesday. And you don't find any pattern at all nor any way to predict it. So you go to the local university mathematics department, which is in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and it's a good mathematics department they have there, and you ask them. They set their finest minds and finest computers to work immediately but they can't help you.

Why is that? happy.png

Avatar of Optimissed
MustangMate wrote:

Elroch and Opti are bound up in the works of duality. If not predetermined must be random. If the world was not created it must have happened by chance. Origins all started with a beginning. Something either had a cause or not.

Easy to get stuck in the mud, endlessly spinning the wheels. Especially so since neither of the dualities expressed are descriptive of the real world. 

Tbh, it looks like you've been discussing randomness without having the faintest idea of what it is, so try answering my little question in the previous post rather than shooting off about things that seem a bit on the random side, to be honest. If you genuinely think about it, all should come clear. If you don't, it won't.

Incidentally, if you're interested in duality, categorising Elroch and me as trite and whatever is being caught in the meshes of dualism and it's the epitome of black/white thinking. I'd normally call it thick but the watchword of the day is "nice".

Incidentally, the universe didn't happen by chance and it wasn't created, because it created itself and if you had actually read a post or two I've written, you'd know that's what I think. happy.png

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

LMAO 

Someone wants to have a serious discussion of randomness and begins with example of meeting a  certain girl  !!! Somebody please find me the straight jacket 🥃

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive
Wolfbird wrote:

MustangMate, are you saying that the universe was neither created by design nor happened by chance? If so, then what?

If the question needs asking no answer will suffice, now can it? Once the mind has become closed as such, (an example the duality being discussed), of either/or - what then ? 

People here greatly misuse the terms affect the verb and effect the noun. When it’s understood everything is affecting everything else, has always done so and apparently will continue on.  One begins to understand randomness by maths, the only place it exists - in abstract thought. 
Open your eyes and what do observe?

I observe order. Nature continues on as I know it.
True randomness can only exist as a thing of abstraction. The universe is behaving as it always has.   

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

How can “causes” be tied to whether or not true randomness exists ? How far back in time are we to look? You”ll end up searching for Origins. The topic is grand in its place. It becomes trite here as it’s totally irrelevant to the topic. 
You two insist the topic is defined by predictability - something is random if it can’t be predicted becomes the only acceptable parley in your outdated and misguided texts. 

Avatar of Wolfbird
MustangMate wrote:
Wolfbird wrote:

MustangMate, are you saying that the universe was neither created by design nor happened by chance? If so, then what?

If the question needs asking no answer will suffice, now can it? Once the mind has become closed as such, (an example the duality being discussed), of either/or - what then ? 

People here greatly misuse the terms affect the verb and effect the noun. When it’s understood everything is affecting everything else, has always done so and apparently will continue on.  One begins to understand randomness by maths, the only place it exists - in abstract thought. 
Open your eyes and what do observe?

I observe order. Nature continues on as I know it.
True randomness can only exist as a thing of abstraction. The universe is behaving as it always has.   

You can be as prickly and evasive as you want to be but mine was a legitimate question.  

Avatar of Optimissed
MustangMate wrote:

LMAO 

Someone wants to have a serious discussion of randomness and begins with example of meeting a  certain girl  !!! Somebody please find me the straight jacket 🥃

Look, I'm being serious. If you can't work with the example I gave you, then you have either no intelligence or no desire to discuss this and maybe you're only here to call people names?

If you can't think about that question, you can't think full stop. I thought you might have a sense of humour but seems not. However, I have the philosophy degree between us and believe it or not, I'm on subject. That is a typical, legitimate philosophy essay question. If you can't answer it, you need help but if you won't answer it, you aren't worth talking to. happy.png

Avatar of Optimissed

<<People here greatly misuse the terms affect the verb and effect the noun. When it’s understood everything is affecting everything else, has always done so and apparently will continue on.  One begins to understand randomness by maths, the only place it exists - in abstract thought. 
Open your eyes and what do observe?>>

When you don't have the intelligence to understand what people are saying, who are you to tell them they misuse words? Or call them "trite"?

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed wrote:
MustangMate wrote:

Randomness being defined as something that can’t be predicted.  

All I can dooo is briefly shake the ole noggin. How trite. Such limited thinking leads exactly to this point. 

Can we talk about specifics, such as a series of events? The events could be almost anything, like the chances of meeting a girl you like (and whose daddy is rich) at the local monastery. It's just as easy to call them numbers and the numbers could stand for any type of events.

So, we can have a series of events, such as the days of the week. In their normal order, they aren't random. If they were random, we'd be confused. So what would a random series of weekdays look like? Once you had got past the normal MTWTFSS order, and noted that wasn't being followed, but the girl you met at the monastery asked you out and said "meet me on Wednesday at the bend in the river nearest where the Font flows into the Wansbeck at one minute past midnight, and bring a spare fast horse", you'd need to predict which day was going to be Wednesday, right? So you look for patterns in the list of days of the week that have happened so far to try to pinpoint the next Wednesday. And you don't find any pattern at all nor any way to predict it. So you go to the local university mathematics department, which is in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and it's a good mathematics department they have there, and you ask them. They set their finest minds and finest computers to work immediately but they can't help you.

Why is that?

This is what I posted. It is quite probably a superb explanation of randomness and why it's defined by unpredictability. I was able to write it very quickly, because I have an astronomically high IQ and am creative. I am now bleedin fed up of talking to people who don't understand a word and are so pompous that even so, they talk down to people in an unpleasant manner. If you think you know what randomness is then don't say another word until you've defined it for us, so I can have a laugh.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive
Wolfbird wrote:
MustangMate wrote:
Wolfbird wrote:

MustangMate, are you saying that the universe was neither created by design nor happened by chance? If so, then what?

If the question needs asking no answer will suffice, now can it? Once the mind has become closed as such, (an example the duality being discussed), of either/or - what then ? 

People here greatly misuse the terms affect the verb and effect the noun. When it’s understood everything is affecting everything else, has always done so and apparently will continue on.  One begins to understand randomness by maths, the only place it exists - in abstract thought. 
Open your eyes and what do observe?

I observe order. Nature continues on as I know it.
True randomness can only exist as a thing of abstraction. The universe is behaving as it always has.   

You can be as prickly and evasive as you want to be but mine was a legitimate question.  

Alternative ideas are plentiful. By asking the question as phrased- it’s being Assumed the universe has a beginning.  Firstly our ideas of origins will be different but I do not begin such conversation by accepting the assumed premise you made as true and then proceeding .

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

That’s the issue with these fellows here. The topic is abstract and philosophical. They try to make it into their definitions and provide answers claiming truth. All fluff with no substance. 

Avatar of Optimissed

You're a pompous hypocrite.

Avatar of Optimissed

If you want to discuss it, do so with people of your own ability and interests and let others alone. You don't have a clue how to define randomness, do you. Or even what it is.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Opti - you need learn something. I disagree with your perspectives. The views are misguided. But it is YOU who is doing the insulting here by repeatedly saying I lack any intelligence. Perhaps if you grew up a tad you’d learn a thing or two. 
Your version of what the topic is about us strictly in line with Elroch. Differing conclusions at times but the same approach. This view is different than intended by the OP as he has repeatedly stated. 

Avatar of Optimissed

Come off it.

Avatar of Optimissed

You've been pretending to discuss randomness for the past two thousand posts and you've just made it clear that you haven't a clue what it is and you don't read other people's posts at all but even so, their posts are always wrong and you know what randomness is .... and they don't. Everyone is a fool but you. You talk down to people, you're unpleasant, and now you accuse me of starting with insults.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

To know if true randomness exists it takes far more inquiry than knowing if events were predictable. That issue is sticky enough as it is but ask yourself, is it relevant to the question- do events happen, come into existence, change course mid- stream unaffected by any previous events?

The question regards the nature of the universe and Not our ability to make accurate predictions or find causes for events ( which is just another way of saying Reasons 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Insisting someone answer a question (when they fail to realize it’s based on faulty premise)  is quite childish, and  this coming from a champion debater to boot ! Posing a question after previously citing the refutation is stuff made at the sand box on around kindergarten age. 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

The question of true randomness is really quite encompassing and open for a wide range of discussion. It certainly should not be based solely on our ability to predict nature. Limiting discussion to consider this being exclusive is for the brain dead. Unfortunately a couple here insist on placing their definition on the OP’s thereby controlling all discussion. Sad state of affairs really, but is not random at all!

Come  on ! Ask a question about randomness and don’t ask me about finding that special girl

Ask is the Structure of the Cosmos random? Now that can be related too. 

Filters work best used. Some think a filter must be maintained in a like new condition, cleaned often, to be made like new. Not so. Filters work best with Patina. With age. A used filter, when properly cared for, is superior to the factory model. 
The guy living isolated on an Island knows more about randomness than any of us. 
You may know the meaning of life but it’s trivial if someone is asking how to boil water. 

Avatar of Wolfbird
MustangMate wrote:
Wolfbird wrote:
MustangMate wrote:
Wolfbird wrote:

MustangMate, are you saying that the universe was neither created by design nor happened by chance? If so, then what?

If the question needs asking no answer will suffice, now can it? Once the mind has become closed as such, (an example the duality being discussed), of either/or - what then ? 

People here greatly misuse the terms affect the verb and effect the noun. When it’s understood everything is affecting everything else, has always done so and apparently will continue on.  One begins to understand randomness by maths, the only place it exists - in abstract thought. 
Open your eyes and what do observe?

I observe order. Nature continues on as I know it.
True randomness can only exist as a thing of abstraction. The universe is behaving as it always has.   

You can be as prickly and evasive as you want to be but mine was a legitimate question.  

Alternative ideas are plentiful. By asking the question as phrased- it’s being Assumed the universe has a beginning.  Firstly our ideas of origins will be different but I do not begin such conversation by accepting the assumed premise you made as true and then proceeding .

First, I'm not assuming any premise as true. Secondly, I used your words from a previous post above: 

"Elroch and Opti are bound up in the works of duality. If not predetermined must be random. If the world was not created it must have happened by chance. Origins all started with a beginning. Something either had a cause or not."

This led to my question as to your viewpoint, since obviously you don't agree with either of these premises. I have no dog in this fight. I'm genuinely interested in the discussion and am trying to get a grip on everyone's perspective.  If it is impossible for you to articulate, I understand, but throwing out cryptic remarks while making snarky comments about everyone else's posts is counter productive.