The relationship of free will to randomness is actually quite simple. Free will is that part of our behaviour which is unpredictable, while general randomness is that part of the behaviour of something which is unpredictable.
Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )
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are you pointing out the similarities, or do you believe that FW can coexist with the laws of physics even in the absence of randomness?
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:
u fools can believe whatchu want, but i use my own freewill allllllll daaaaaaay long. and every choice i make affects the future of the U (albeit in the most teensiest-weensiest of ways).
sad is the person who doesnt dream in blocks of lucidity. like me. there is nothing that bridges subconscious freewill w/ determinism like a sheep's cloud. they both exist in the Sub-C (for some). enuf proof 4me. feeling comfortable.
which leads me to ask....is freewill (as it relates to randomness) a personal thingy ?....subjective ?
****
I've asked myself to find the sunset in my eyes
so go....n'find the clouds of hazel green where blue resides
lucid drifts will surrender to the wisp of morning heather
as I slowly bring me back to my soothing nest a feathers....smiling !
****
nite everyone....its high 70's (as usual) and it feels sooo good .
simply awesomeness! 
i dont feel a/o should ever rule out the power of positive thought (or neg. for that matter) and how it can affect a physical outcome.
take ur body e.g....one's thought alone can (and often does !) change ur physical state. and placebo's are a phenomenon that the SM homer simpson's over. truth be told !....sorry (kinda).
Dec 17, 2019
0
#266
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
The relationship of free will to randomness is actually quite simple. Free will is that part of our behaviour which is unpredictable, while general randomness is that part of the behaviour of something which is unpredictable.>>>>
That is an interesting definition but does it mean that you really might tend towards a possible determinism or are you really convinced that "unpredictable" means basically the definition I provided of not being subject to regular relationships with other entities?
The possible determinism is eliminated by the fact that for all physical systems it is absolutely impossible to have enough information to make precise deterministic predictions (it is merely that for some types of large systems, some things can be predicted with high accuracy, because uncertainties become small).
To relate this back to free wll, it implies that it is impossible for anyone to predict exactly what you will do, and this includes yourself!
Every "self" is actually both an embodied brain (inside a social web of same) AND, every self is actually a committee of many selves, that you construct over the course of your life. Therefore, you make lots of choices (via committee) that no one can reliably predict.
Unless you are truly a one-dimensional-thinker, like many of us, LOL.
Both the social and physical worlds are chockablock with "non-ergodic processes," especially at the macro level. So "prediction," (in many important cases), simply barks up the wrong tree.
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
The relationship of free will to randomness is actually quite simple. Free will is that part of our behaviour which is unpredictable, while general randomness is that part of the behaviour of something which is unpredictable.>>>>
That is an interesting definition but does it mean that you really might tend towards a possible determinism or are you really convinced that "unpredictable" means basically the definition I provided of not being subject to regular relationships with other entities?
The possible determinism is eliminated by the fact that for all physical systems it is absolutely impossible to have enough information to make precise deterministic predictions (it is merely that for some types of large systems, some things can be predicted with high accuracy, because uncertainties become small).
To relate this back to free wll, it implies that it is impossible for anyone to predict exactly what you will do, and this includes yourself!
what determinism have to do with predictability? Determinism doesn't mean that the universe is going toward a certain goal that require prediction. it is kind of like fire, once it ignite it will keep burning and as long as there's nothing to change its course (like randomness, free will, etc) it will happen precisely the same way. every time.
on another note... i dont claim to understand all the nitty gritty of QM. however, like anything else i seek the advise of professionals and I did listen to a number of physicists lately. they certainly dont dismiss determinism as you do. (even some of these that dont support it) and these are not some online loony anonymous physicists but respectable and prominent ones.
if you claim that determinism have 0 possibility that's equal to claiming that all of them are just a bunch o fools? that is one hell of a claim.
I want to clarify about the connection i made yesterday between freewill and randomness with simple equation. (at least the one im aware of)
1.there's a belief that a deterministic world does not allow freewill and FW require indeterministic environment.
2.quantum randomness interpretation blunder determinism, and tell us that we live in an Indeterministic world
adding these 2 together make freewill possible and our individuality can be saved (along with our self esteem : )
anyways... personally i think that its extremely important to believe in FW for many good reasons.
but with that said, i also like to stay objective and keep in the back of my mind that my belief may be false. it called compartmentalizing... and its a wonderful thing. lol
uhhh, i dont think we hafta believe in freewill. its kinda like wut Descartes wuz trying to say, 'we're living it !'
We live in a S-T Continuum, right ?....and it supports free will. anything else would be, well....uncivilized 
. brownian motion may be a better place to start than QM as its more....well, u know, molecular. so if a/o here feels that we're living it all out here in the fashions of 100% determinism ? ....then plz, do tell....and make sure not to leave out any of the details....k ?
Dec 18, 2019
0
#271
Uke8 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
The relationship of free will to randomness is actually quite simple. Free will is that part of our behaviour which is unpredictable, while general randomness is that part of the behaviour of something which is unpredictable.>>>>
That is an interesting definition but does it mean that you really might tend towards a possible determinism or are you really convinced that "unpredictable" means basically the definition I provided of not being subject to regular relationships with other entities?
The possible determinism is eliminated by the fact that for all physical systems it is absolutely impossible to have enough information to make precise deterministic predictions (it is merely that for some types of large systems, some things can be predicted with high accuracy, because uncertainties become small).
To relate this back to free wll, it implies that it is impossible for anyone to predict exactly what you will do, and this includes yourself!
what determinism have to do with predictability?
If a process is not deterministic, it has a random component and this component is unpredictable. Obviously, it is possible for something to be deterministic but for you to have inadequate information to predict it (for example, you might have no information at all). But the point is that IF you had the right information you could predict it.
To risk being repetitive, quantum mechanics is absolutely unpredictable (in full detail - it is possible to predict partial information) because it is absolutely impossible to have enough information to do so. The very existence of part of this information forces another part of the information to be incomplete (i.e. random).
Determinism doesn't mean that the universe is going toward a certain goal that require prediction. it is kind of like fire, once it ignite it will keep burning and as long as there's nothing to change its course (like randomness, free will, etc) it will happen precisely the same way. every time.
on another note... i dont claim to understand all the nitty gritty of QM. however, like anything else i seek the advise of professionals and I did listen to a number of physicists lately. they certainly dont dismiss determinism as you do.
Heisenburg's uncertainty principle implies it is absolutely impossible to predict the future position of a free electron, regardless of how much information you start with. Tell them about this and ask if they seriously disagree.
(even some of these that dont support it) and these are not some online loony anonymous physicists but respectable and prominent ones.
if you claim that determinism have 0 possibility that's equal to claiming that all of them are just a bunch o fools? that is one hell of a claim.
I am not aware of any person in this "bunch o fools". Provide a name and a reference for your claim.
It genuinely is quite intriguing to note that the people posting in this forum don’t employ precise grammar. Perhaps this is an allusion to Feynman’s lack of care when he inscribed in presumably an untidy scrawl about theoretical physics with legendary mathematical equations far beyond typical capacities of his age group. You see, I have pondered it, and I got to the statement, ‘The world is a comedy to those that think, and a tragedy to those that feel.’ I do not know how, but it resonates with a poignant feel in my mind, causing immense destruction, which cannot be circumvented. I feel it - it is pervading... the world is a tragedy.
I apologise for sounding somewhat ambiguous, but I did not have intentions of implying lack of grammar usage was necessarily a bad thing. On the other hand, it contrasts well with the intellectual vibe of the topic
means i flunked
Dec 18, 2019
0
#276
DifferentialGalois wrote:
It genuinely is quite intriguing to note that the people posting in this forum don’t employ precise grammar.
I am not imprecise very often, but will welcome any corrections.
Someone up for a random game of chess? Rated, three to five days per turn.
I'll ask again. this time more directly. does the big bang gang embrace e/t as random ? and if not, why not ?
'which leads me to ask....is freewill (as it relates to randomness) a personal thingy ?....subjective ?'
true randomness (if exist) disrupt the flow of a deterministic world and so it allow for FW to exist too. (as related to physics)
it is only our beliefs that are subjective and personal. no one really knows the truth. and honestly? the truth dosnt really matter because FW feels real as real can be and thats good enough reason to believe in it. (subjectively speaking ; )