If the universe requires a creator then the creator should require a creator = religion is made-up

@ alex-rodriuez and drpshoder, then you don't know science, a single cell is so complex it is impossible to be random, an accident, natural proccesses or evolution. It had be to design by a crerator with supernatural powers. They (scientist) are not with me but it is through their work I don't believe evolution; if you take the time research you come to the same conclusion. Go out find the these books for yourself, they written by scientists.

There is no evidence of supernatural, but we do have evidence of natural.

I don't know why its so hard for you to understand this?  Maybe you can't no matter how hard you try?

@ alex-rodriguez, you are a comformist and believe on anything be told. I guess new ideas are hard to grasp and choose to be a follower. To hold to a faults concept is not only naive but you are easily beguile. It take courage to find out for yourself if a fact is true by doing your own rersarch, you are an impulsive person who criticize an unexplore concepts; that put you in the dark ages.

There is no evidence of supernatural, but we do have evidence of natural.

The fact that 95-98% of the population of the world desires to worship someone or something & give it credit for creation of everything certainly meets the qualification for reasonable doubt in a court of law.

But it wouldn't make it true or valid.

Just face it.........there is no evidence of anything supernatural, you guys are just unable to admit it for some very strange reason.

why have all the believers failed to produce one shred of evidence in support of this supernatural being?

why can they not show us any tests on this being that would provide some evidence to believe their claims that it exists in the first place?

Why do they have no evidence but continue to believe it anyway? Why do they continue to be illogical?

FEAR? Fear of being punished for eternity?

I do agree :

Concerning expertises, everybody 2007, july, said : oil barrel will be around 200 dollars? Today : 45.

Concerning predictions may I add that many predictions are auto realized too ?  

Concrning propheties, everyone looks at future, holy predictions are most catastrophic, the best way not to be wrong.

Best regards

While it is true that there's no way to explain it experimentally and experientially, and of course no way to experience it unless we die and see for ourselves, and that no way to tell the rest of the guys here what we'd see on the other side, then it'll be a futile attempt to further push through with the current logic that we have... but personally, I believe that we came from something but that hardly resembles the kind that most of humans hold on to.

Most of your God concepts deal with a static God, and here is one of your main theological difficulties. The awareness and experience of It constantly changes and grows. There is no static God. When you say, "this is God," then God is already something else. I am using the term "God" for simplicity's sake.

I hope it's okay if I endorse one school of thought on this subject as follows:
http://www.apocatastasis.net/God/Seth-The-God-Concept.html

Simply stated, this is one of the thumbnail passages that explain Seth's concept of God: "He is not human in your terms, though he passed through human stages; and here the Buddhist myth comes closest to approximating reality. He is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. If you remember what I said about the way in which the universe expands, that it has nothing to do with space, then you may perhaps dimly perceive the existence of a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever-expanding consciousness that creates, simultaneously and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given -- through the gifts of personal perspective -- duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence, and eternal validity.
This absolute, ever-expanding, instantaneous psychic gestalt, which you call God if you prefer, is so secure in its existence that it can constantly break itself down and rebuild itself.
Its energy is so unbelievable, that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, systems and fields, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

And it may simply be altogetherly described as All That Is.

All portions of All That Is are constantly changing, enfolding and unfolding. All That Is, seeking to know it Itself, constantly creates new versions of Itself. For the seeking Itself is a creative activity and the core of all action.

And here's how CREATION, OR THE BIG BANG can probably be best described... along with the answer (or non-answer) to the question if there's a God, before God???

Now - and this will seem like a contradiction in terms - there is nonbeing. It is a state of, not of nothingness, but a state in which probabilities and possibilities are known and anticipated but blocked from expression.

Dimly, through what you would call history, hardly remembered, there was such a state. It was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known.

This is the lesson that All That Is had to learn, and that could not be taught. This is the agony from which creativity originally was drawn, and its reflection is still seen.

Some of this discussion is bound to be distorted, because I must explain it to you in terms of time as you understand it. So I will speak for your benefit, of some indescribably distant past in which these events occurred.

All That Is retains memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus - in your terms - toward renewed creativity. Each self (you), as a part of All That Is therefore also retains memory of that state. It is for this reason that each minute consciousness is endowed with the impetus toward survival, change, development, and creativity. It is not enough that All That Is as a primary energy gestalt, desires further being, but each portion of It (you) also carries this determination.

Yet the agony itself was used as the means, and the agony itself served as the impetus, strong enough so that All That Is initiated within Itself the means to be.

If - and this is impossible - all portions but the most minute last 'unit' of All That Is were destroyed, All That Is would continue, for within the smallest portion is the innate knowledge of the whole. All That Is protects Itself, therefore, and all that It has and is and will create.

When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when it could not express itself.

It is conceivable then, that It has evolved, in your terms, so long ago It has forgotten Its origin, that It has developed from still another Primary which has - again, in your terms - long since gone Its way. So there are answers that I cannot give you, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence. We do know that within this system of our All That Is, creation continues and developments are never still.

The first state of agonized search for existence may have represented the birth throes of All That Is as we know it.

In other words, All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. This was the state of agony of which I spoke.

The agony and the desire to create represented Its proof of Its own reality. The feelings, in other words, were adequate proof to All That Is that It was.

At first, in your terms, all of probable reality existed as nebulous dreams within the consciousness of All That Is. Later, the unspecific nature of these 'dreams' grew more particular and vivid. The dreams became recognizable one from the other until they drew the conscious notice of All That Is. And with curiosity and yearning, All That Is paid more attention to Its own dreams.

It then purposely gave them more and more detail, and yearned toward this diversity and grew to love that which was not yet separate from Itself. It gave consciousness and imagination to personalities (us) while they were still within Its dreams. They also yearned to be actual.

Potential individuals, in your terms, had consciousness before the beginning or any beginning as you know it, then. They (you) clamored to be released into actuality, and All That Is, in unspeakable sympathy, sought within Itself for the means.

His was in your terms a primary cosmic dilemma, and one with which It wrestled until All That Is was completely involved and enveloped within that cosmic problem.

Had It not solved it, All That Is would have faced insanity, and there would have been, literally, a reality without reason and a universe run wild.

The pressure came from two sources: from the conscious but still probable individual selves who found themselves alive in God's dream, and from the God who yearned to release them.

This, then, is the dilemma of any primary pyramid gestalt: It creates reality. It also recognized within each consciousness (you) the massive potential that existed. The means, then, came to It. It must release the creatures and probabilities from Its dream.

To do so would give them actuality. However, it also meant 'losing' a portion of Its own consciousness, for it was within that portion that they were held in bondage. All That Is had to let go.

With love and longing It let go that portion of Itself, and they (souls) were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation (big bang).

All That Is, therefore, 'lost' a portion of Itself in that creative endeavor. All That Is loves all that is has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state and at such a price.

It, of Itself and from this state, has given life to infinities of possibilities. From Its agony, It found the way to burst forth in freedom, through expression, and in so doing gave existence to individualized consciousnesses. Therefore It is rightfully jubilant.

If you have been given free will. Within you there are blueprints; you know what you are to achieve as individuals and as a people, as a race, as a species. You can choose to ignore the blueprints. Now: Using your free will, you have a made physical reality something quite different than what was intended. You have allowed the ego to become overly developed and overly specialized. In many respects, you are in a dream. It is you who have made the dream too vivid. You were to work out problems and challenges, but you always to be aware of your own inner reality, and of your nonphysical existence. To a large extent have lost contact with this. You focused so strongly upon physical reality that becomes the only reality that you know.

When you kill a man, you believe that you kill him forever. Murder is, therefore, a crime and must be dealt with - because you have created it. Death does not exist in those terms.

In the dawn of physical existence, and the dawn before history began, men knew that death was merely a change of form. No God created the crime of murder, and no God created sorrow or pain....again, because you believe that you can murder a man and end his consciousness forever, then murder exists within your reality and must be dealt with....the assassin of Dr. King believes that he has blotted out a living consciousness for all eternity....but your errors and mistakes, luckily enough, are not real and do not affect reality, for Dr. King still lives.

There is never any justification for violence. There is no justification for hatred. There is no justification for murder. Those who indulge in violence for whatever reason are themselves changed and the purity of their purpose of adulterated.

I've told you that if you do not like the state of your world, it is yourselves that you must change, individually and in masse. This is the only way that change will be affected. If your generation or any generation affects a change, this is the only way it will be done. When I'm telling you has been said before through the centuries. It is up to you as to whether or not you listen.

It is wrong to curse a flower and wrong to curse a man. It is wrong not to hold any man in honor, and it is wrong to ridicule any man. You must honor yourselves and see within yourselves the spirit of eternal validity. If you do not do this, then you destroy what you touch. And you must honor each other individual also, because in him is the spark of eternal validity.

When you curse another, you curse yourselves, and the curse returns to you. When you are violent, the violence returns...I speak to you because yours is the opportunity [to better world conditions] and yours is the time. Do not fall into the old ways that will lead you precisely into the world that you fear.

When every young man refuses to go to war, you will have peace. As long as you fight for gain and greed, there will be no peace. As long as one person commits acts of violence for the sake of peace, you will have war. Unfortunately it is difficult to imagine that all the young men in all the countries will refuse to go to war at the same time. And so you must work out the violence that violence has wrought. Within the next hundred years that time may come. Remember, you do not defend any idea with violence.

There is no man who hates but that that hatred is reflected outward and made physical. And there is no man who loves but that that love is reflected outward and made physical.

@UpcountryRain...Is Einstein your worshipful hero?

"If our complex universe for being in such complexity requires a complex creator as god"...is the key word there 'if'? 

 then that god should also require a much more complex creator too....

according to whom, or what? what proof have you of this claim, this assertion, this attempt at an axiom that may or may not be true for all I know? I seek the truth, so I don't just assume you're right about that because you say it's so, after all, nor would you advise me to, even though may expect or prefer me to for all I know, or not, depending on whether you do or not.  Claiming something is preaching, and preachng is only teaching if it's truth being preached, right? logically anyway? first of all you're not even, at least how you wrote it, saying that God does require a complex Creator, you're saying if there is one, it should be that that God has a complex creator, and I say, what if that isn't so? how can you be sure you're right about that? What if God is all powerful and created itself or himself or herself via advanced means human minds can't fathom, or by those or different methods set it up so God and the universe or just God at least always exiseted without the need for a Creation, effect preceding cause, somehow, some divine way, after which God created the universe either? that's not me saying i think that is what happened, though it is my guess, but its me asking how you can be sure that never happened? im hoping your response is better than because you haven't seen evidence that it has happened, for is absence of evidence to a finite mortal mind evidence of the absence of God in reality, or is it that the human is just missing the Truth? Which one, and can you prove it? what other alternative explanation for how the universe began or existed forever without the need for a creation makes more sense logically? aren't all theories equally absurd bordering on the impossible except for that so many people are convinced existence does seem to be real somehow anyway, thereby implying some theory must fit?

t Conclusion = its obvious that all religions are man made and false.

obvious to you and millions of others, but why should i personally buy into the theories of you or millions of others, or those millions who opppose your view and believe the antithesis? why should i trust a professor or a preacher or my mother or my heart which has only faith and no knowlege verified or my mind which can't seem to conclude anything quite all the way or so it therefore would seemish anyway, or what a book has to say on the matter as if i can verify it speaks of the truth or for the truth, as if i can be sure truth is real or not, or verify whether it is contradictory like ...this statement is false...seems to be both true and false or false and true or neither or both or something before its either straight up true or false, and so on...lots of preachers...what we, and apparently you, are looking for, is a teacher, at least one...a prover...for asimov said something akin, 'i will believe anything, any proposition, any claim, however absurd, however ridiculous, so long as evidence accompanies it' and i applaud that only i change the word evidence to proof, and i keep searching for the truth. almost everyone i meet, or any of us meet, seem to think we know one way or the other, except for truth seekers, who guess that it's out there or for whatever reason or reasons seek the solutions to these ancient debates, because they aren't sure what it is, and aren't convinced it can't be figured out, or discovered, or otherwise obtained, Revelation, who knows, and you seem to think you have it figured out that there is no God, and so do lots of other folks, and others think they are sure there is one, or more than one in some cases. Religion of course is quite another topic from proof of God's existence. Whatever religion if any are true, I can't tell, and am looking for proof.  I read from lots of various scriptural texts and seek God in prayer and by philosophizing and through math and poetry and by hoping and by scrutinizing the universe as deeply as i can and so forth, so when someone presents what appears to be an attempt at proving one way or another whether God is real or not, I pay close attention, and I am willing to listen, but what I find is preaching, guessing, wherever I go, as I go on hypothesizing and seeking, like so many others who aren't alleged truth havers, those who think they know one way or the other regarding the status of God's existence. You have failed to prove anything. Everyone always has.  The coolest part about your comment however, is that you sparked debate and thought, you got people talking about a topic that people are so afraid to talk about they delete posts like yours unless they're posted in special separate religious forums, as if that is the only place such topics of such massive implications should be discussed.  the fact that you're quite rude and lacking in empathy does nothing to deter from the value inherent in your statement, even though it didn't prove squat, because no one can prove squat, apparently, when it comes to anything, much less regarding God matters, and most have given up even trying to find out, or never even started looking, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for all I know, but im glad some people still care, and you obviously love the people you're being rude to too or the perceived and actual wrongs committed by the church and religion wouldn't have sparked you to such a rant on the matter, as in good for you for defending the very people you often call names and act as though you hate, or despise at least, your bittersweet soul ablaze. I just wish you could prove there is no God, or that there is, or that I could, or anyone could, though, in the end, i wish that no more than I wish to search for the truth forever, so paradise is probably quite a complex place, if it's out there, which my guess is it is, but my mind laughs at my guess and asks for proof, the same as it asks of you, of anyone preaching to me, or in this case, to the general public, about anything. truth is very precious to me. it is to be shared. almost everyone in the world seems to think they have access to a great deal of it, but no one has ever proven a single thing to me, perhaps, therefore, for all I know, to anyone, including themselves, regardless of how convinced otherwise they might be.

To be good (if that is our intention) we don't need BS.

A claim that may or may not be true for all I know, and God exists may not be BS if it isn't, so unless you show God isn't BS, how can your point be made? let's say you're right, and we don't need BS to behave...what does that have to do with whether God exists, or at least did at some point or whatever? for all we know God could exist and you could be right about us not needing BS to behave, but assuming you're right, that's not proof there is no God, would instead be evidence that we don't bs to behave, nothing more implied necessarily, right

 Man can create a perfect world with his own mind.

says you?

how? what do you mean by 'world?' which man? women too? what's a mind? how much does a mind or a thought weigh? what is the mind made out of? how can man use such a thing to construct or build or as you put it, which is likely much harder, at least for man, create a perfect world and what would that perfect world entail, what qualities would it have, not that what qualities it would have is something we'd need to know necessarily to know how man could build such a place, if only someone like you or someone else making the claim that its possible would PROVE it instead of just claim it, and more or less expect us to drool and say DUH< OK, if you say so...

 Man can think

but can he learn?

 and find good and bad on his ownself.

find it how and with what and or by what means and when and where can he find it and are you sure there is good and bad or is that opinion based stuff and is opinon based stuff, especially diverse and different amongst people, contradicting each other often, truth, for sure? how can there be so many truths? not saying there aren't, saying prove there are, if you can.

 Religion was made up in times when there was no communication on the world

by God?

 and when there was a lot of chaos with man being totally helpless.

totally? and when hasn't there been a lot of chaos on earth whilst man has occupied it?

 Actually the chaos today is perhaps the same as those times

oh, there we go, i hear ya

 but we have the advantage to see and communicate better.

says you?  what do you mean by 'see'? could you 'communicate that better'?

 Any suggestions with good proofs and reason ?

not from me. im still searching. i haven't found the answer yet. i have a tattoo on my ribs and tummy, a quatrain i wrote...if i exist...etc...I myself am lost in Lost, if such a land there be...I'd wager if you're ever there, you'd find my poetry.  If you happen to acquire any evidence to back up any of your claims though, I'm guessing I'm not the only one who would appreciate your sharing it here in a public post, and sharing it with many other websites as well. as for folks suggesting proof at the level you're seeking in this comment, in your life as well, good luck, but don't hold your breath. some folks will be nice, most will be mean, but none of them will prove whether there's a God or not, and the same goes for proving their religion is the right one. you dont necessarily ask the impossible, but  no one on earth has ever faced a more formidable obstacle than the one you're asking them to overcome...the acquisition of truth is a much more difficult journey than climbing Everest could ever hope to be, unless of course im wrong about that, and it's as easy as Revelation or something, but regarding that I'll let thomas paine have the last word here, though i dont see how him saying this makes it right either, but it seems to be worth considering as either true or false in its own right....revelation is only revelation to the person who recieved it; to all others it is heresay and we may or may not be obliged to believe it'...thank you for daring to ask. dont despair. hang in there. so what if you never find out? is that so bad? BUT good golly miss molly, whoa, what if you do?! ps, i plan to find out in 2049, but that's a long story and clearly im trying to keep this from becoming verbose, for as shakespeare said, 'brevity is the soul of wit' and as da vinci quipped, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication' more claims needing to be verified but used in the meantime as just in casers, cuz what if they were right about that? what if it's all so simple, what if like whitman said, all is truth, or like picasso said, anything you can imagine is real? kisses and hugs to each and every one of you. Live! Be kind, and do big things!

There are contradictions in religions because any religion is human's attempt to explain the universe (God). But still I think science is not much successful in this attempt. We all live in this amazing world but no one can really understand our origin. This is the biggest question and looks like the simplest answer is God, whom we will never be able to understand completely.

A single god is so complex it is impoqsible to be random, an accident. It had to be designed by a creator

I promise that if believers make their magical ghost appear(*) for real I'll change my mind.

(*) I do not acknowledge testimonies found in books which also feature dead people living again, walking on water, water becoming wine, seas separated in halves etc, or more generally anything that have been properly debnked by science.

ya its all BS ..humans are generally speaking pretty ingorant as a whole. We are just animals and part of the food chain. Difference is we know we are about to be eaten.

I'm staying on the side of Yuri and Lovey Dovey. They're good pointmakers and they have the materialists on their heels in defense.

Safety first atheists....time to castle....quickly !

Hey ! Wait a second....I like ghosts. I have lotsa happy ghosts in low & subterranean places. So watch out there buster....you're cruzin' !........