nirvana & meditation

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Avatar of troy7915
tomtrytostay wrote:
Troy 400 .
That's frustrating . Almost to say that you can't reach something if you want to .


   Of course, Tom, that's the point: desire is limited and the unlimited can't be reached through the limited. We must understand the limitation of our instrument.

Avatar of troy7915
tomtrytostay wrote:
Okay Troy and Xming I've read your exchange and I'd like to share what I see .

Xming I get your view that we see an idea and strive to make that idea a reality . Whatever it is . Actualise the concept .

Troy.

Your view I think is that all there is is everything . The individual self does not exist and therefore free will does not exist . So there can't be a drive towards actualisation . Also as you've said the truth is continually changing anyway so it we were to strive towards an idea by the time we got there it would be out of date and what we captured would be about to change anyway .

My own view is that we can reach a greater peace thorough letting go of trying to understand and just being but I accept your point Troy that this isn't truly letting go .

I suppose that a person naturally is at the point they are willing to let go or they aren't .

I have something like that to relate . I lost my mind , just about . Man I really did .

I'll tell you what I realised in those moments that whatever the hell I thought I knew I didn't .

Because whatever was in that jumbled mind of mind was clearly wrong .

Sometimes you know you have to be willing to tear up your view of reality and start again .


I've heard that people that have become spiritually enlightened have experienced massive trauma and maybe that's why .

  Quite right, we can form an idea and then actualize the concept. But truth is not a concept, which is something rather trivial.

 

  As for the self not being real, we must be careful: one cannot say the self doesn't exist ( because Buddha or who-not said it) and then act in daily life as if does exist. It is one thing to understand the concept of the self not existing, and quite another to not act from a center, as if a psyche does, indeed, exist.

  It takes much more than an understanding of the concept. The concepts surrounding and forming the self must be actually gone. It is the very center of this construct which doesn't disappear through practice, gradually. It's there or it's not, and if it's not something else is. But one cannot say it's not as much as before, this center: it's still there, if it is and if it's not it's not. No tricks.

Avatar of xming

troy #423...One of the hardest 'concepts' to understand is that of 'no-self'.  Quit spouting like a leaking faucet and dicipline yourself to get to know the idea.  If you have a self, when did you know that?  When did it come about? Why don't you know it in sleep? Where will it be if you are taken by dementia?  What is your self without behaviors, thoughts and emotions?  Where is it then?  And when the grim reaper comes knocking, where is your self then?  When does a river become a river?  When an ounce of snow melt merges with a puddle? Where is the river when it meets the ocean?  Take the idea of a table.  What makes a table a table? Oh, the legs and the top of course.  But if I take a leg, is the table still there?  If I take the top is the table still there?  If you take the parts, does the whole still exist?  Aggregate consciouness is what you call self but take away the parts and where is troy?  AND,  The concept of impermanence has been debated for centuries and you have not even thought about it for 12 years. 

Avatar of tomtrytostay
Okay guys . I'm interested in this idea of on the one hand holding the view the self does not exist and on the other having to live your life and finding out what works .

I'll say how it is for me . Almost always the only choice that I comprehend is the choice whether or not to solve .

I suspect this choice isn't real or maybe it's the chooser that isn't real .

But it's the connection I have with the real world if you like .

Occasionally I feel I have a choice to make in life so important I'm not sure that choosing not to solve and be mindful is an appropriate response .

So I go into thought a bit though I'm mindful . I guess like calculating I guess .
Avatar of tomtrytostay
I don't know . I guess we have to find a way to come to terms with life whatever view we hold.

Or maybe I just haven't seen yet there is another way .

Haven't fully adjusted .

Troy I can't believe you don't document anything !
Avatar of troy7915
xming wrote:

troy #423...One of the hardest 'concepts' to understand is that of 'no-self'.  

   A concept is meaningless to understand, in this area. This is not a debate. Without a direct perception of what we are talking about, one will remain with concepts.

  The concept of no-self means absolutely nothing if one functions in daily life as if the self is real. We have become this: good with concepts, while reality is different, despite a good conceptual understanding.

  Man acts as if the self is real: this is the starting point. Knowing conceptually that it is not does not make it vanish. As it stands now, the self is rather alive and kicking in most people's lives.

Avatar of tomtrytostay
Troy you do make a lot of sense to me at least .

I'm not sure that I am particularly enlightened but I can relate to an extent with this idea that meditation brings you to a point where your mind becomes a tool rather than the controlling force .

What interests me though is what's left .

I mean clearly whatever your view and whatever we are there is behaviour .

I'm interested in what this behaviour is about .

Why do we do what we do .
Avatar of tomtrytostay
I pretty much do experience this no self idea . I know I'm just going to watch myself at work today . Like a movie you know ?

I watch my thoughts feelings and behaviours .
Avatar of xming

troy #427...so man acts as if the self is real.  That's true.  Man also acts as if the earth is flat and acts as if the sun travels through the sky.  The illusion is rather strong, don't you think?  Why don't you answer the questions I put forth in #424 instead of sounding like a politician skirting the issue?  Answer the questions and prove the self is real. 

Avatar of xming
kaynight wrote:

xming: Your river analogies are too deep for me.. Whee!!!!

Ain't no river wide enough....

Avatar of tomtrytostay
This acting as though the self is real . I can relate to that a bit .

I have one choice left in my life . Only one . That is the choice whether or not to solve .

But you know I know that the right thing to do is not to solve .

I know it's better to be mindful and relaxed . Healthier .

So really no choice exists for me at all .

That fits with my position which is the self does not exists .
Avatar of xming

Solve what?  A chess puzzle?

Avatar of tomtrytostay
No like our mind conceives a problem .

Then we have a choice whether or not to solve it .
Avatar of mdinnerspace

solve

sälv/

verb

find an answer to, explanation for, or means of effectively dealing with (a problem or mystery).

tom writes: But you know I know the right thing to do is not to solve.

You got it right tom, your being unable to find the answer to or explain ANYTHING.

When the head is so far up the you know what nothing is understandable, cant see the light of day.You're correct, best to ignore a problem or question and "not solve". Maybe this conclusion is the result of always getting it wrong. A self protection mechanism your mind employs to keep from going completely nuts.

Avatar of mdinnerspace

If the human mind did not "solve" we would be just another vegetable, food for the sharks.

Solving problems and mysteries is what defines us (excluding tom of course).

Avatar of troy7915
tomtrytostay wrote:
Troy you do make a lot of sense to me at least .

I'm not sure that I am particularly enlightened but I can relate to an extent with this idea that meditation brings you to a point where your mind becomes a tool rather than the controlling force .

What interests me though is what's left .

I mean clearly whatever your view and whatever we are there is behaviour .

I'm interested in what this behaviour is about .

Why do we do what we do .

  No, Tom, it's not a tool: that only reveals the intention to be free of problems, to have an empty mind; yet it's not empty enough to not have the intention to be empty! That intention is also a controlling factor.

Avatar of troy7915
mdinnerspace wrote:

If the human mind did not "solve" we would be just another vegetable, food for the sharks.

Solving problems and mysteries is what defines us (excluding tom of course).

  So then, what is the solution?

Avatar of troy7915
tomtrytostay wrote:
No like our mind conceives a problem .

Then we have a choice whether or not to solve it .

  Are we different than the problem?

Avatar of BlargDragon

This is 23 pages long and my attention span is pretty short, so could someone tell me if a 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' reference has been made yet?

Avatar of mdinnerspace

"There is a fundamental law of nature which said that, left to it's own devices, things move in circles."