what are we?

  The real crime is inside our heads and no government can take care of that, because they have the same problem. There are no doctors because doctors have this problem as well.

....true.

I know what you mean Troy. I guess what's needed is for somone to lead the change. We need a new world order. We need an equitable and fair society for all. 

We need to understand that we are all the same and all worthwhile. 

We need a stiff drink, and lots more laughter.  Yes indeed.

Yo

Sounds great

  No one can ever implement that change in another. No one can lead another to change. When one is thirsty they will get up and drink.

  No one else can make another thirsty, except for various ideals, as a propaganda. And propaganda is a lie, which can be repeated and propagated. But truth cannot be repeated, nor propagated.

  The individual is the collective and vice-versa. There cannot be any evolution of something which only appears to exist, but doesn't.

 One cannot conceptually say the self doesn't exist and then invoke evolution. The only way to do that is to invoke a higher self, but that's still part of the self, part of the same illusion. So if one really see the illusion they never invoke evolution--there is no such thing, except technologically, but we weren't talking about that.

  Does it get better? That's the whole point. It gets more sophisticated, we get more comfort, but the animal instincts, violence, fear, are still there and in a crisis it all becomes obvious.

  There are many superficial changes that can be impolemented. During that process other injustices are bound to happen, which will need further changes. This is social work.

  But a fundamental change is a horse of a different color.

yes Troy I get that. 

I wonder though if it's a virtuous circle. 

That the more society changes the more we change and the more society changes. 

I wonder if it's inevitable mankind will become more civilised. 

Hawking talked about scientific progress being inevitable due to competion , I wonder if societal advancement is too. 

I hope we'll be kinder to each other in gradual steps. 

But then when the country is poor people suffer more. Maybe kindness is largely about resources

 Not quite: the change you speak of is non-existent. Just because we have advanced technologically doesn't mean we've changed inwardly. Again, this ties in with your perception that there are somehow levels, and we are getting closer and closer to truth.

  With a different perception you would see no progress. Even logically, you can't say the self doesn't exist and then introduce progress: something that doesn't exist can possibly 'evolve'. At leats conceptually this can be seen.Which is why to say it doesn't exist when this is not fully understood, unfortunately means very little.

troy I'm just posting on tomtrytostay going foward. Peace and love.