I think this is a discussion that will be allowed by chess.com. Organizations are quick to censor controversial topics but I think there must be a pushback against nonsense of any sort.
Ok, but "this nonsense" isn't happening. You're asking about a hypothetical.
I do support the said person in their life choices . . . so long as the said person's actions do not affect fair competition of others.
Yeah, that's where problems arise. On an individual level it's fine, but when you try to make policy for groups of people it gets tricky.
Well, It will be interesting to watch what actually happens but I think they will not allow that man to play, I think while registeration of FIDE account they see the birth certificate to clarify age, gender etc. So, they will be knowing this is a male and simply wouldn't allow him. But, a real transgender in chess would be taken in male or female idk, probably female.
There is a small problem with that though. In our state, anyone is allowed to modify their birth certificate to reflect what they happen to feel at the moment. So if someone is born male, but later feel like they want to be female, the birth certificate will say female. Or it could say neither.
So checking a birth certificate wouldn't be a means of establishing if someone has XX or XY chromosomes. And even if a dna test conducted determined if someone was male or female, what about disorders like XX males or people that are XXY?
Intersex individuals and other chromosomal abnormalities (that would be able to compete in high level chess) are extraordinarily rare. It's a completely separate topic than someone with XY identifying as XX in tournaments.
Oh I agree. And it's obvious someone making a deliberate change from male to female has an advantage. But even the rare disorders would have to be accomadated.
...I have to wonder what will be the result if this nonsense wants to come into the Chess World? Will the FIDE and other chess organizations (including chess.com as an example) cave in to such demands?
You're a bit late to the dinner table.
Five years ago on chess.com, this thread appeared: Can I become a WGM if I say I am transgender?
In that thread I wrote:
"About 15 years ago I met Angela Alston who was at that time the Texas woman champion. A dozen years prior to that, the San Antonio Club champion was Tony Alston... the same person. Angela is transgendered and although she doesn't seem to play competitive chess anymore, neither FIDE nor the USCF ever challenged her right to participate in women-only tournaments, nor was she denied the Texas women's champion title. This would suggest that FIDE wouldn't deny women's titles to transgendered individuals who meet the necessary criteria."
Since then the USCF issued a Transgender Policy: http://www.uschess.org/index.php/Governance/Transgender-Policy.html
Natalia Parés Vives, a transgender individual, played in the 2008 Women's Olympiad as well as in the 2008 Catalonia Women's Championship. She had formerly played as Josep Parés (http://www.bidmonfa.com/pares_josep.htm). Apparently, again, FIDE, who doesn't seem to have any spelled-out policy, never challenged it, therefore tacitly approves.
I've already teasingly joked about this a few years ago on some other thread
I said something like, "What if Magnus Carlsen transgendered into a woman and changed his name to Maggie Carlsen? Then he/she could win the women's world chess championship while also possessing the world chess championship! Wouldn't that be something?"
Yeah, but he was 'racist'...so he would have all championships yanked.
He never apologized for that commercial where he, the white guy, moved first as black. Didnt say if he was trying to blackface?! Suddenly he didnt do anymore PSAs...what a horrible representation he was. He blamed the organization too lol...Chess.com no followup either.
For relatively low levels it probably doesn't matter. But what happens if the example given by Spirit happens?
For relatively low levels it probably doesn't matter. But what happens if the example given by Spirit happens?
Nothing will happen, at that high level everyone knows everyone.
To give my answer to the question asked by the OP, I can see it becoming a problem is the US, Canada, and Europe, but I would imagine countries like China, India, and Iran would be quite opposed to such western ideas.
I swear this is only a problem because people make it a problem. People are hopeless problem creators, and I’m surprised the chess players can’t solve this. The solution is easy. Just drop it, and realize that there should be no gender categories at all. They use this phrase “gender neutral” these days. That’s the answer. Chess must be gender neutral, the same way it should be race neutral.
Giving women chess titles at a lower rating than men is a joke. I'm surprised the women go along with it.
“The day may come that we may not need separate championships,” says Susan Polgar. “That’s the ultimate dream. But I think in order to get there, we need to change society, how they treat women in chess. Slowly, I think it’s possible. But these kinds of changes don’t happen overnight.” ~
Where is Susan Polgar when you need her!
"Everyone is entitled to their stupid opinions"- at some point in history a male chess patzer
So here's mine:
It isn't right/fair based on females not being classified as a minority group.
This the entire issue, imo.
A transgender (now identifying as or surgically made a female) who developed and experienced puberty/adulthood as a male don't share the same level of inequalities as natural females have already had to endure. Changing status doesn't change facts.
I might understand/agree more if this occurred at a young age, but wouldn't understand those circumstances alone. I may reserve few exceptions with detailed information.
Any title should have an asterisk (denoting such).
“The day may come that we may not need separate championships,” says Susan Polgar. “That’s the ultimate dream. But I think in order to get there, we need to change society, how they treat women in chess. Slowly, I think it’s possible. But these kinds of changes don’t happen overnight.” ~
Where is Susan Polgar when you need her!
What a lovely article. Thanks.
“The day may come that we may not need separate championships,” says Susan Polgar. “That’s the ultimate dream. But I think in order to get there, we need to change society, how they treat women in chess. Slowly, I think it’s possible. But these kinds of changes don’t happen overnight.” ~
Where is Susan Polgar when you need her!
What a lovely article. Thanks.
The title says equality eludes women in chess, but this is not true. Women can join any tournament and compete for any prize. The only gender that is restricted in terms of tournaments, titles, and prizes, is male.
That's not to say there isn't work to be done re: gender equality, but when people can't have factual conversations about these things then I wonder how much change can really happen.
Men and women shouldn't be split in physical sports or in chess, or anything else for that matter. Why that's an abomination. I say may the best win, whether it be a male that win's or a female that win's.
I swear this is only a problem because people make it a problem. People are hopeless problem creators, and I’m surprised the chess players can’t solve this. The solution is easy. Just drop it, and realize that there should be no gender categories at all. They use this phrase “gender neutral” these days. That’s the answer. Chess must be gender neutral, the same way it should be race neutral.
Best take on the issue so far...
“The day may come that we may not need separate championships,” says Susan Polgar. “That’s the ultimate dream. But I think in order to get there, we need to change society, how they treat women in chess. Slowly, I think it’s possible. But these kinds of changes don’t happen overnight.” ~
Where is Susan Polgar when you need her!
What a lovely article. Thanks.
The title says equality eludes women in chess, but this is not true. Women can join any tournament and compete for any prize. The only gender that is restricted in terms of tournaments, titles, and prizes, is male.
That's not to say there isn't work to be done re: gender equality, but when people can't have factual conversations about these things then I wonder how much change can really happen.
And if that is the case then the reasonable thing to do is to simply drop gender and transgender distinctions, completely. Like I said we do not respect these distinctions in any respectable discipline. The physical difference doesn't bring with it an intellectual difference. I have no doubt that once we drop this set of issues completely then there will eventually be a talented woman to ascend the throne of World Champion. We do away with the psychological effects of all kinds of biases (tacit unspoken biases, especially) and then things happen. Let there be women who are grandmasters, not WGMs, which are understood to be qualitatively less than GMs, for instance. I mean look at the whole world of professional intellectual talent. We do not have a women’s faculty in the physical sciences at universities, where “Women’s.ph.D” degrees are given. The whole thing is an archaic vestige of a bygone era.
Well, It will be interesting to watch what actually happens but I think they will not allow that man to play, I think while registeration of FIDE account they see the birth certificate to clarify age, gender etc. So, they will be knowing this is a male and simply wouldn't allow him. But, a real transgender in chess would be taken in male or female idk, probably female.
There is a small problem with that though. In our state, anyone is allowed to modify their birth certificate to reflect what they happen to feel at the moment. So if someone is born male, but later feel like they want to be female, the birth certificate will say female. Or it could say neither.
So checking a birth certificate wouldn't be a means of establishing if someone has XX or XY chromosomes. And even if a dna test conducted determined if someone was male or female, what about disorders like XX males or people that are XXY?
Then, the FIDE official will have doubts and will recheck is he male or transgender or done some surgery, then they will know if he has done surgery looking at certificates.