After your 2...e6 I would play a Torre Attack and be happy. If you KNOW he's a Colle player then play the KID, works great and it's healthy to know. If you don't want to do that then you might go into a Hedgehog Defense thingy, also good to know. That's all I got for you.
Help with Playing Black against Colle Setups
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Dec 17, 2016
0
#2
You can't have everything.
After your 2...e6 I would play a Torre Attack and be happy. If you KNOW he's a Colle player then play the KID, works great and it's healthy to know. If you don't want to do that then you might go into a Hedgehog Defense thingy, also good to know. That's all I got for you.
After your 2...e6 I would play a Torre Attack and be happy. If you KNOW he's a Colle player then play the KID, works great and it's healthy to know. If you don't want to do that then you might go into a Hedgehog Defense thingy, also good to know. That's all I got for you.
Maybe consult:
Grandmaster Repertoire 11: Beating 1 d4 Sidelines by Boris Avrukh (2012)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627001415/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen164.pdf
Dec 17, 2016
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#4
You can just play 3...c5 and setup a hedgehog structure. You're not forced to play ...d5.
Dec 17, 2016
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#5
Petrosian castled long against Spassky's Torre Attack and crushed him in 1966. He really understood those types of positions.
Dec 17, 2016
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#6
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding... but you're trying to avoid the lines you're bad at instead of simply working on them and playing everything? Because the lines you list are completely fine and assuming your ultimate goal is just to improve your chess, avoiding lines you're bad at isn't the way to improve. Also, what do you mean 3. g6 blunts bd3? I mean this is a really deep statement but when they play g6 it's quite common to still put a bishop on d3 and play h4 h5 so it's still a give and take.
Dec 18, 2016
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#7
You could consider adding some variation of the Dutch to your repertoire. Dutch Stonewall, perhaps, or Leningrad Dutch.
Then you open 1. d4 e6 and you reply to 2. c4 with Nf6 (heading for Nimzo or Bogo country), or reply to 2. Nf3 with f5 (heading for a Dutch).
As a guy who plays the Nimzo regularly (always playing 1...Nf6, 2...e6, 3...Bb4), a one-size-fits-all strategy for defences against d4 will not work well (although I admit that I have a problem with letting go of 2...e6, even if White plays 2.Nc3).
Instead, it seems to be the case that going into a KID-like setup against club systems such as the Colle/London works pretty well - the pawn at g6 makes the bishop at d3 pretty useless, since White's original plan is to play a Greek bishop sacrifice with Bxh7+ at some point:
Thank you for the replies everyone, there isn't really a 100% satisfactory response listed.
@SWED420BLAZEIT, it's not that I'm 'bad' at these lines, but rather I dislike the positions. Black might get easy equality, theoretically, but that doesn't mean it's easy to play for a win. The positions often feel stale, especially if White is content to sit back and not take the initiative. Here's a game where I outplayed my opponent through the middlegame and early endgame, but he had excellent drawing chances because of the symmetrical pawn structure: https://www.chess.com/daily/game/114969606?page=1
As per the topic, I'm mostly distraught that I've spent a lot of time learning the Bogo and Nimzo Indians. I rarely spend time on openings, and here I thought learning these two would set me up for life against 1.d4 ... and then as early as move 2 White can sideline into a popular system that denies everything I've studied and reaches positions I find dull. Yuck.
Maybe it's just time to bite the bullet and learn the KID.
The goal in the KID isn't all that complex - after ...d6, ...Bg7, ...O-O, Black strikes in the center with ...e5, relocates his king's knight and plays ...f5 to launch a kingside pawn storm.
Meanwhile, moves like ...c5 (when it is tactically correct i.e will not lose material) will slow down White's play on the queenside.
You have to watch out for queen-bishop batteries that could wipe out your fianchettoed bishop, as it is the piece which holds Black's game together.
Dec 18, 2016
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#12
He can't really play 'anything' because he can get move ordered. He has to play the moves ...Nf6 and ...e6 otherwise he risks getting move ordered when White switches up and plays c4. Sure he could play ...f5 or ...g6 but then he wouldn't be playing the Nimzo/Bogo anymore.
The only solution I see apart from playing mainlines with ...d5 is to play a hedgehog:
Play the Semi-slav, only d5 instead of d6. That is what Karjakin played i Game eight of the 2016 World championships, and won against Carlsen
Dec 18, 2016
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#14
Why do you dislike the Black side of the Colle?
You are not getting mated and White has nothing if you know what to do. Just look at some games.
Dec 18, 2016
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#15
Anyways, if you play g6 you dont have to play KID structures with d6-e5. You can just play normally with e6-d5-c5 and fianchetto your bishop. Something like this:
Basically in this positions Black is playing for e5. And he has resources like Ng4 at his disposal because all of his pieces are aiming at that square.
"Does 3...b6 work perhaps?"
It's the most commonly played move in the position you gave in the OP according to chess.com's Opening Explorer, with about equal win/draw/loss percentages. Not a line I play but it looks like 3... b6 works just fine.
@BronsteinPawn:
Speaking from personal experience, I think the reason the OP dislikes the Black side of the Colle is precisely because White has nothing. The OP equalizes cleanly in every game, but fails to generate any winning chances. Also, sometimes after Black takes the bite out of White's system, White's pieces are still annoyingly active. Thus, more piece trades. Eventually, the position becomes very drawish.
Dec 18, 2016
0
#18
Oh, so you want White to have something? Lol!
Can you post some positions in which Black takes the bite out of White's Colle but still his pieces are active? How do you take the bite out of something and leave it with active pieces?
I think I kind of feel you, White sometimes just gets solid as a rock and it looks like you dont have any clear plan or way to make progress. However there is usually at least one plan, or way to try and make progress.
I usually experienced it from Londons against my KID where somehow White just played c3-e3 and destroyed me on the queenside, but most of the time it was and still is because I dont choose the right plan.
I think that KID lines work very well against non-queens gambit lines, such as colle, London, Egc. However, the KID straight up isn't all that great. Recently grandmasters have mainly been playing Nimzo, followed by QGD if they play 3.Nf3 and a ragozin setups. I think your best chance as stated before if you don't like 3.d5 is just to go c5 and go for the hedgehog setup. Even 3.b6 is ok. If you know your opponent plays the colle maybe you can play KId but otherwise I would stick to Nimzo/bogo and just play some b6 c5 lines
I think your second paragraph is what I meant. My first point probably came across as unclear. Hopefully this game of mine explains how I feel about the Black side of the Colle.
https://www.chess.com/live/game/1776434529
Admittedly, the game wasn't very good (14... O-O was just one improvement of many), but the general gist of it is like this: White plays the Colle. Black equalizes fully. But now White is extremely solid. Even if Black makes major improvements, I can't find more than a slight plus. Forget what I said about active pieces. It was a bad way to describe it. In the game I just saw "things" like d4-d5 and Qh5 and decided to deal with it all by trading pieces.
Honestly, I think the Colle System is overrated at all levels. As long as Black keeps an eye on the e4-square, he should be able to equalize comfortably. The resulting positions can be pretty drawish, at least in the ... d5 lines.
Here's my problem.
I like playing the Nimzo and Bogo-Indian structures. I also dislike the Black side of the Colle, namely 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6. Black's third move always seemed unnecessary to me, and I'd much rather play something like 3...g6, blunting the future Bd3 from White.
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, I face a conundrum. If I keep aiming for a Bogo-Indian with 2...e6, after 3.e3 it seems I have nothing better than 3...d5, reaching the mainline Colle. Playing 2...g6 doesn't work because I'm pretty poor at the KID, and 3.c4 transposes to that. The only other option I can see after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 is c5, but again sooner or later Black will have to play d5 and reach the Colle positions.
Is there any other possibility I haven't considered? Does 3...b6 work perhaps? To be clear, I know that the Colle isn't theoretically dangerous, yada yada, but if the White player plays it every game and has far more experience in it, that's something I want to avoid. Any suggestions would be appreciated.