When to refrain from the King's Indian Attack

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I intend to try the King's Indian Attack in the following weeks. Only, however, (and just like with any system opening) there are some situations when it simply doesn't make sense to play it (like Colle against the Indian formation). In which situations I should resign from trying the KIA and what should I do instead?

ThrillerFan

Are you playing it via 1.e4 or 1.Nf3?

 

Speaking as one that plays 1.e4, and only plays the KIA against e6 Sicilians (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3), I can tell you that in general, the King's Indian Attack is best played when Black has committed to ...e6, meaning either the line I gave already, or against the French.

That said, it's also "playable" against the Caro-Kann, though possibly not as strong as against the French or 2...e6-Sicilians.  Same can be said about the Alekhine, Pirc, ...d6 and ...Nc6 Sicilians, etc.

It is completely unplayable against the Scandinavian Defense.  1.e4 d5 2.d3? dxe4 3.dxe4 Qxd1+ 4.Kxd1 is just good for Black as he has not committed his c-pawn to c5 yet, unlike 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5! 3.dxe5?! (3.Nf3 is best) dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 and the White c-pawn is a problem in that it gets in White's way from being able to execute the best plan against this idea.

It is also completely ineffective against 1...e5.  Black has zero problems after 1.e4 e5 2.d3 or 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d3.

4km41

Is colle weak against the indian formation? Which one? King's or queen's?

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Thank you. I plan to play 1. Nf3 in order to avoid 1... e5. (Colle, as far as I understand, is not particularly successful against the kingside fianchetto)

ThrillerFan
4km41 wrote:

Is colle weak against the indian formation? Which one? King's or queen's?

Colle is useless against any fianchetto defense - King's Indian, Grunfeld, Modern Defense, Modern Benoni, etc.

Even the Slav formation, the "Anti-Colle" with Bg4 is very strong.

The Colle is really only effective when ...e6 has been played with the BIshop behind the pawn chain, so Queen's Gambit Declined and Queen's Indian setups.  Otherwise, the Colle is a Bust.

Many have the misconception that the "Systems" for White are all playable against anything, and they really aren't.  Below is a list of when each one is ineffective or outright unplayable:

 

Colle - If Black hasn't played ...e6 (with the Bishop behind the pawn chain), this system is useless.

London - Advantage Black if he plays the Modern Defense (1...g6/2...Bg7/3...d6 intending a Knight move followed by 5...e5 =/+)

Torre - Useless against 1...d5 or 1...Nf6 and 2...d5.  Should only be used against ...Nf6/...e6 or ...Nf6/...g6

Veresov - Unplayable against the Modern or Benoni lines (1...g6 or 1...c5)

Trompowsky - Really only playable agaisnt 1...Nf6.  1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! has basically been figured out and Black probably even gets a slight edge after 2...f6!  It was once thought to be a weakening move for Black, but theory has since evolved in this line, basically in Black's favor.

Charetter115

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 b5! will seriously cramp white if you play with that move order.

vfdagafdgdfagfdagafdgdaf

Thank you. And what would you say about the following lines:

A) 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 - should I really carry on with 4. 0-0 so that I get 4. ... e5 ?

B) 1. Nf3 d5 2. Nc6 - and ...e5 seems to be coming again

C) 1. Nf3 Nc6 - the same issue with ...e5

D) 1. Nf3 Nf6 - and now after 2. g3 the opponent can do whatever he/she wants (while I'm already devoted to fianchettoing my bishop)

ThrillerFan
Daimonion wrote:

Thank you. And what would you say about the following lines:

A) 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 - should I really carry on with 4. 0-0 so that I get 4. ... e5 ?

B) 1. Nf3 d5 2. Nc6 - and ...e5 seems to be coming again

C) 1. Nf3 Nc6 - the same issue with ...e5

D) 1. Nf3 Nf6 - and now after 2. g3 the opponent can do whatever he/she wants (while I'm already devoted to fianchettoing my bishop)

I don't see the King's Indian Attack as a viable "I'll do it against anything" weapon.

If you are going to open 1.Nf3, then I think what Black does dictates the route you should take.  I truly believe that White gets nothing in the KIA if ...e6 isn't played, and the Bishop can come out.

To answer your questions:

A) Whether or not Black plays ...e5 depends on which line he plans to play.  Black does not have time to play the Reverse Classical King's Indian with 4...e5, 5...Nf6, 6...Be7, 7...O-O, etc.  The extra tempo makes a difference here and White is better.  However, Black can exercise a reverse Saemisch (4...e5 and 5...f6), which can be risky, but is sounder than the reverse classical.  More common, and in which case ...e5 is typically delayed, is the Reverse Fianchetto King's Indian.  White has zip for an advantage.  0.00 - dead equal!

B) 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 - Here you have a couple of choices.  3.d4 transposes to a sideline of the Chigorin Defense (1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3) - requires picking up a Chigorin QGD book and reading the section on that line.  The other option is 3.Bg2 and you will end up in a Reverse Pirc, which again, is no better than Equal at best.  This is why I say that trying to play the KIA as a single system is no good.  Against 1...d5, as far as I'm concerned, if White wants anything resembling an advantage, he must play 2.c4 or 2.d4.  2.g3 is a lemon move.

C) 1.Nf3 Nc6 - Again, typically played by Chigorin players.  2.g3 is useless here.  You can go into a Chigorin with 2.d4 d5, an English Opening with 2.c4 e5, or into King Pawn openings with 2.e4, against which Black can play 2...e5 transposing to Open games or some other line like 2...Nf6 if he is playing Nimzovich's Defense.  2...Nf6 is what is recommended in "Play 1...Nc6" from about 5 to 10 years ago.

D) 1.Nf3 Nf6 is Black's most flexible approach.  You made a non-commital move, Black made a non-commital move!  Onus is on you!  If you play 2.g3, Black can go into reverse KID lines which are dead equal.  If you play 2.c4, Black can go into his typical line against the English or QP defenses.  If you play 2.d4, again, same deal as 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3.  I personally play 1.Nf3 Nf6 myself, and if 2.c4, I will play 2...d6 where White must either allow 3...e5, leading to a reversed Closed Sicilian, which is again equal, or else White will have to play 3.d4, in which case now I'm in my Old Indian Defense with 3...Nbd7 with 4...e5 coming.

 

If you think that the KIA is an all out effective weapon against everything, or that ...e5 can be completely prevented no matter what, think again.  If you want to succeed in this game, you must be flexible and react to what is thrown at you.  Chess is not about taking a narrow path to succeed.  Chess is a wide open jungle!

vfdagafdgdfagfdagafdgdaf

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. In fact, I don't consider the KIA as an one size fits all weapon. And it is actually for the reason that I've had problems trying to enforce the KIA in the lines enumerated above that I started to worry whether this system is viable against them. Your response confirmed my doubts and now I'll have to work out how to safely go out the KIA (e.g. I've already tried playing 1. Nf3 Nc3 2. e4 and 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 3. d4).

letsgoshopping

The book by Ken Smith and Hall on the KIA is very good, explaining plans against many possible responses. Of course if you're going to Play 1.Nf3 angling for a KIA then you have to be ready for transpositions and also happy with black equalising in the opening. 

I wouldn't recommend it as a beginner opening because it isn't very forcing and it requires the ability to play positional chess in varying structures. I recommend it for Pirc and KID Players, who want a relatively low theory opening as White at 1800 Elo Level but don't want to spend time keeping up with an e4 or d4 repertoire.  The KIA can produce Pirc or KID type structures and has the same provocative, reactive quality as these openings.

Lines:

1) Against setups where the white-squared bishop comes to f5, g4 or b7 the KIA is playable and solid for both colours. The Smith book covers this well.

2) Against the French and Sicilian structures as mentioned already it works fine. See Bobby Fischer.

3) If you Play 1. Nf3 and Black tries to engineer e5 with 1.Nc6, I'd recommend the simple 2.d4 (Chigorin, which few people play and is relatively harmless at club level) and if 2.e5 then 3.e4 and it's a Scotch.  Or you can Play 2. e4 and play  an open game.

4) If he sets up with c5, d5, Nc6 and e5, you've got a KID with an extra tempo.

My main advice when playing a 'system' opening is to learn the ideas and plans from a book, Play through whole games and be ready to transpose to other structures. You shouldn't just blindly play the first 10 moves without considering your opponent's plans (but that's the same for all chess openings!) If you're a club player, the likeliness is your opponent is only likely to 'know' one or two openings as Black anyway. The KIA will give you a playable middlegame with little fuss.