why is ruy lopez considered the strongest

FOS Do you believe that it's quite of arrogance to compare things that you possible don't understand it value? Have you ever thought that you may miss some part in your estimate about the strength of openings?

I mean I understand a little bit when you say that the Italian is much equal, I can't explain how it is but I understand that the Italian has some dynamic enough for white to go for it.

I can't understand how the Vienna can possibly match the Ruy not even close and I can imagine few lunatics fun's of a opening idea like the Pozianni which has being refuted from move 3 to hold some commercial stuff outside Reb's house yelling your name " Charles "! and using projector to the outside of his wall showin examples of graphics X player use to impress us with his nonsense!

Enough with this! Stop this idiotic comparison. The Ruy can't be compare with any other choice and no one needs to be a titled player to understand this. It's simple logic God dam it!!

Yes you did say that after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 the position is =. You posted diagrams of this position and of the Scotch starting position and claimed equality for black. Then you tried to support those claims with statistics that were clearly in white's favour.

Anyway, let's assume that did not happen. The position after 9 moves is evaluated equal by your engine. And you believe that evaluation because your engine has so much elo. How does the engine arrive at its evaluation of the move 9 position?

No I showed the mainline of the Ruy Lopez up to move 9 to be equal

Than I showed the Scotch up to move 4 to be equal.

Than I supported my claims with 2 sources.

Engines + Databases

The Engine I used is one of the best in the world as of today.

The Database I am using does not have engine games in it they are only Grand Master games.

I used this information to make my own assessement of the position.

At which point I feel the position is even.

Based on the information, I am recieving me at this time.

The database said that white wins about twice as many games as black from the given position. How this is supposed to support your claim of equality is beyond me. As for the engine, I repeat my question: How do you think does it arrive at its evaluation? How does it make its assessment of equality or whatever? 

The Database also said the position is drawn twice as much as white wins.

The Engine I am using is the latest Stockfish.

I am not a programmer so I don't know how it evaluates its position.

However, I try to understand why it evaluates the position the way it does.

I let my engine think for some time for it to see if there is any tactical opportunities.

In the position it does not see any.

I let it think longer to see if the evaluation changes at all.

For what ever reason the engine believes the position is even.

At which case I look at the position.

When I look at this position. I feel both sides have plenty of idea's here.

They can try alot of variations. They can also try alot of different plans.

I do not see how one side can claim they have better plans than other.

For it does seem like there is plenty of chances in this position for both sides.

GrandMasters have played this position frequently.

Which also makes me think if they play this frequently surely it can not be a terrible position for either side.

So I believe the position is equal.

I'm not arguing that there aren't a lot of ways to challenge very good players in many openings, just that maybe the reason the ruy has been analysed so extensively yet people keep finding new ideas means it is possibly the best option.

X player you should ask your engine if makes coffe to have some because it's obvious that you are totally blind with out your premature tools! ( Databases, Stockfish ). You are playing chess for what ? Five , ten years and you still can't recognize in this position that black has more weaknesses than white!

You can't even understand how this moves a6,b5 affect the position and guess what...? You will not ever understand asking a coffee machine. No man....you are a chess clown to play chess in a circus with monkeys!

lol I have been playing chess for 1 year.

X_PLAYER_J_X said: "The Database also said the position is drawn twice as much as white wins."

How is that relevant? White scores significantly more points than black altogether.

Do you also think that the World Championship match 2013 between Carlsen and Anand should be considered an even results? After all, 70% of the game ended in a draw, that's more than twice as many as Carlsen won.

X_PLAYER_J_X said: "The Engine I am using is the latest Stockfish.

I am not a programmer so I don't know how it evaluates its position.

However, I try to understand why it evaluates the position the way it does.

I let my engine think for some time for it to see if there is any tactical opportunities."

You don't need to be a programmer to know that the engine calculates variations. It calculates longer variations when you give it more time. In the end, whichever variation is evaluated best based on parameters that are defined by the programmers (material, king safety, structure, relative value of pieces, etc.) is the computer's first choice, and the evaluation of the final position is displayed in numbers. So far so trivial.

Now, as a matter of fact, no strong chess program is out of its book in your move 9 position. Why is that so? Because programmers are aware that at this stage their engine's ability to find the best moves is very limited. So instead, they equip chess programs with very far reaching opening books.

To wrap it up: If the engine's assessment of the move 9 position had any relevance at all, the programmer would have the book end at move 9. As the book doesn't end at move 9, the programmer him/herself is aware that at this stage of the game it is a better idea to make his program play the move that is best according to human evaluation.

X_PLAYER_J_X said: "Which also makes me think if they play this frequently surely it can not be a terrible position for either side."

Why would grandmasters play this white opening against other grandmasters thousands of times, 3 times more than all the other choices after 1.e4 e5 added up together, when it's completely equal? Where do you get the idea that a very slightly inferior position, that is neither a = nor a += but something in between, would be "terrible"?

I've read a lot of this thread (not all of it - I'm only 57).  

Just to say that in the past I have found comments by all the titled players on this thread, and FOS as well, to have been interesting and informative. When you guys stick to chess analysis and comment, it's great.  The ad hominem stuff not so much.  

Still, kept me amused on a sleepless night earlier this week, so mustn't grumble I suppose.  Live long and prosper all.

Oh and just to summarise for those late to the party, it seems the Ruy Lopez is a good opening for white, as are some other openings.

All you are doing is avoiding my question.

By asking questions upon questions of your own.

However, even though I know you are doing this.

I will still answer your question to the best of my ability.

In response to the text in Red

It was a game match which you know is not intepreted the same way as a database.

In response to the text in Orange

You are absolutely right. Chess engines have there limitations. Which is why it is very important to use more than one source when going over a position. A chess player should have multiple sources.

Which is exactly what I did.

In response to the text in Green

I did not say 1.e4 e5 is equal.

I said the position after move 9 in 1 continuation of the Ruy Lopez which falls under the King Pawn Game is equal.

The below position:

Your text says following:

Where do you get the idea that a very slightly inferior position, that is neither a = nor a += but something in between, would be "terrible"?

The inbetween you speak of does not exist. The only symbols used in chess are the ones below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_annotation_symbols

• ∞ – Unclear: It is unclear who (if anyone) has an advantage. This is often used when a position is highly asymmetrical, such as Black having a ruined pawn structure but dangerous active piece-play.

• =/∞ – With compensation: Whoever is down in material has compensation for the material.

• = – Even position: White and Black have more or less equal chances.

• +/= (=/+) – Slight advantage: White (Black) has slightly better chances.

• +/− (−/+) – Advantage: White (Black) has much better chances. It is also written as ± for White advantage, ∓ for Black advantage; the other similar symbols can be written in this style as well.

• +− (−+) – Decisive advantage: White (Black) has a winning advantage.

Even if the position is 0.10 people consider that position =.

The only thing remotely close to being inbetween = or +/=  is if the position is considered unclear.

However, even that is preposterous idea.

No one files a unclear position between =  and +/=.

I will ask my question again.

What do you believe the position above to be.

What is your evaluation of the position?

Do you believe it is =? +/=?  ∞?

Do you even have the courage to make a stance?

Many people try to insult me.

Many people try to avoid answering me.

However, They can never prove me wrong because they never make a stance.

How can you say I am wrong with anything by being on the fence on this position?

I have been wrong alot in my life. I have been wrong in my short chess hobby.

However, If I am proven wrong, I can accept it.

I learn from it.

Do you think you can win a chess match by staying on the side of the board(The fence) insulting other people who make the chess moves?

That's what my cat does!

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/lets-compile-a-list-of-the-most-knowledgeable-members?page=2

FOS Wrote : its gotta be pfren. he might be somewhat hostile sometimes but when he does post it tends to be relevant and true (there may be a couple exceptions i can think of but considering the number of posts he makes thats a pretty remarkable record). i can say ive learned some about my opening repetoire from pfren.

I guess IM Pfren forgot to teach you the Ruy Lopez and its importance! Such a bad knowledgable chess instructor....I will report to FIDE.

Very Interesting evaluation FOS.

Hmmmm yes I am reading your explaination as well.

Well it is true the black queen side knight and dark bishop. Are having some activity issues that is for sure.

However, The Knight on b1 and Bishop on c1 by white are also have small issues.

Very tough to assess this position for sure.

Obviously, I will have to think over this position some more.

I'm not sure choosing a player's worst game in order to discredit their abilities and/or knowledge makes for a very strong argument.

An example from one of the best players of the Queen's Indian:

Indeed FOS

That is the tough part!

I mean lets say the position is 0.20 people would still consider it as:

Equal position =

There is no dissention from a position which is 0.00, 0.20, or -0.20

All are considered =

Which is why I thought about my stance on the position before I said such a claim.

I believe the position to be =

I do not believe the position is dead 0.00

However, I do believe it would be categorized as equal.

I believe if I had to give a numerical number. It would be tough.

I guess if I tryed to force myself I would say the position is

= 0.15

I would give 0.05  points for the fact white will have a center D pawn being played. Which I slightly value more than lets say a C pawn.

I would give 0.05 point for the fact white dark bishop and light bishop will bit slighty more active than the black dark bishop and light bishop.

I would give 0.05 point for the extra center space.

Which would get to my 0.15 evaluation.

As far as I can tell the Breyer RL probably gets close enough to equal thru at least 15. or so with very few problems on the Qside. Could be most problems occur when Black lessens pull on the Qside and allows White too much freedom in the center and Kside.

Recall an Anand-Carlsen in Norway that might've gone that way.

chessmicky wrote:

Fiveof Swords: You are ignoring a basic rule of life: When you're in a hole, stop digging! You are becoming the very model of an internet troll. Better and more experienced players than you have tried to explain things to you, but you seem incapable of learning--or even knowing that you have things to learn, You are becoming a colossal waste of time