Can someone please guide why c5 for black was a bad move here?

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manoj05
pfren wrote:
omnipaul έγραψε:

To further explain notmtwain's comment, computer analysis just isn't as good in the opening phase.  There's often too much to calculate with very little difference between many positions.  This is why computers still use an opening book when you play against them.

 

For the opening phase, it is much better to look at an opening database, such as the Explorer on this site.  There are 21 games after 3.e3.  3. ... c5 has the 2nd most number of games, only 1 game less than 3. ... e6.  The top move has a higher win percentage for black, but the move you played has a much larger draw percentage as well as a significantly lower loss percentage for black.

 

Given that, yeah, you can say c5 was an "inaccuracy" since it is far more drawish than e6.  But again, this is the opening phase and we're not experts, so the difference between them doesn't really mean as much.

 

I do not trust computers for early position evaluations too, but certainly they are preferrable to the very shallow evaluation you've just made. You will never, ever learn something regarding the quality of XYZ move by using raw, unfiltered statistical data.

 

 

To the O.P:

- Why do you played your bishop at b7 at a very early stage?

Obviously, to get control over the central light squares (d5,e4)

So the right follow-up is adding more forces to control these 2 squares (...Nf6, ...e6 etc).

- Does ...c7-c5 stop d2-d4?

Obviously not, and in some cases there is the danger of that pawn advancing to d5, and limiting the b7 bishop for some time. If the pawn was sitting back at c7, he could probably undermine it by ...c6 and such.

Yes - aim of playing Bb7 it to control centre squares.

And as suggested by you, following it up with ...Nf6, ...e6 would have been better.

Thanks for the insights!

manoj05
Optimissed wrote:

I wouldn't pay attention to the computer calling any move an inaccuracy. It hasn't much of a clue. However, c5 isn't a great move either. e6 brings about the English defence, paying more attention to piece development. The problem with ...c5 is that you're now in a Symmetrical English Opening, very heavily analysed indeed.  White can play d4 and d5, and black's b7B isn't very good. I think that would be the natural approach and if white is a good positional player then should get an advantage. c5 is in itself a normal move but the addition of b6 and Bb7 seems to make it very passive if white plays well.

Wow - you have such good understanding of the game. e6 would have been a better move.

HatsuzukiMeiso

Hi manoj05, do you have Chessbase 15?

manoj05
TurtleAlex wrote:

Hi manoj05, do you have Chessbase 15?

Thank you for your messages.

No, i do not have Chessbase 15. Do you recommend it? And if so then why ie what is good about it and what can one learn from it?

manoj05
Optimissed wrote:

I think ...c5 is an error. As explained, white can build a superior position. The reason is that the B is misplaced on b7 .... it's a waste of a move if c5 is played because white can block the diagonal and black can't prevent it without getting a poor position. The result is that white is a move ahead in a position that's already slightly better for white. After ....c5, black cannot attack the pawn on d5  effectively.

how will white get a pawn to d5 - won't black's pawn on c5 prevent d file advance?

manoj05
llamonade2 wrote:

It's not a great move, but neither is it so bad that white has something to be excited about. I'd call it one of those 2nd rate, but up to personal taste, moves.

Thanks for the input. computer analysis says exactly same thing - move isn't a blunder but not the best move.

dopolian
pfren wrote:
omnipaul έγραψε:

To further explain notmtwain's comment, computer analysis just isn't as good in the opening phase.  There's often too much to calculate with very little difference between many positions.  This is why computers still use an opening book when you play against them.

 

For the opening phase, it is much better to look at an opening database, such as the Explorer on this site.  There are 21 games after 3.e3.  3. ... c5 has the 2nd most number of games, only 1 game less than 3. ... e6.  The top move has a higher win percentage for black, but the move you played has a much larger draw percentage as well as a significantly lower loss percentage for black.

 

Given that, yeah, you can say c5 was an "inaccuracy" since it is far more drawish than e6.  But again, this is the opening phase and we're not experts, so the difference between them doesn't really mean as much.

 

I do not trust computers for early position evaluations too, but certainly they are preferrable to the very shallow evaluation you've just made. You will never, ever learn something regarding the quality of XYZ move by using raw, unfiltered statistical data.

 

 

To the O.P:

- Why do you played your bishop at b7 at a very early stage?

Obviously, to get control over the central light squares (d5,e4)

So the right follow-up is adding more forces to control these 2 squares (...Nf6, ...e6 etc).

- Does ...c7-c5 stop d2-d4?

Obviously not, and in some cases there is the danger of that pawn advancing to d5, and limiting the b7 bishop for some time. If the pawn was sitting back at c7, he could probably undermine it by ...c6 and such.

Exactly. You're likely to get a very bad Benoni after d4-d5.

manoj05
Optimissed wrote:

Not really, it's only that I play d4 openings all the time now because opponents playing black make a lot of errors early in the game compared with their better knowledge of e4 openings. And I know that it only takes a small mistake like that one in the opening and if white plays it right, black never gets much of a chance. It's usually safe for white to castle kingside and wait for black to castle and then throw the K-side pawns forward or make a piece sacrifice, because typically when black's bishop is on b7 it can take several moves to get into the game and meanwhile white can often break open black's king's position.

It's the opposite of white's strategy in the Classical variation of the King's Indian Defence, like the Mar del Plata where black is playing a piece down in the ending for several moves because of his bad dark-squared bishop on g7, so white plays to smash open the queenside, sometimes by sacrificing a piece and trying to queen a pawn in the ending when most of the pieces are off and black has less pieces to defend with. But in the game in this thread with a bishop on b7 and white's attack on the kingside, white would play to keep the pieces on because black's pieces tend to get in his way too much and white uses the extra space he has to maneuver into an attack. Really, I'm only just starting to properly understand these ideas  and it's sad my competitive days seem mainly over because the local chess clubs and leagues in the UK have mainly collapsed.

One query on your comment "It's usually safe for white to castle kingside and wait for black to castle and then throw the K-side pawns forward" - if white castles king side then how can he throw K side pawns fwd? won't it expose white's king too?

manoj05
dopolian wrote:
pfren wrote:
omnipaul έγραψε:

To further explain notmtwain's comment, computer analysis just isn't as good in the opening phase.  There's often too much to calculate with very little difference between many positions.  This is why computers still use an opening book when you play against them.

 

For the opening phase, it is much better to look at an opening database, such as the Explorer on this site.  There are 21 games after 3.e3.  3. ... c5 has the 2nd most number of games, only 1 game less than 3. ... e6.  The top move has a higher win percentage for black, but the move you played has a much larger draw percentage as well as a significantly lower loss percentage for black.

 

Given that, yeah, you can say c5 was an "inaccuracy" since it is far more drawish than e6.  But again, this is the opening phase and we're not experts, so the difference between them doesn't really mean as much.

 

I do not trust computers for early position evaluations too, but certainly they are preferrable to the very shallow evaluation you've just made. You will never, ever learn something regarding the quality of XYZ move by using raw, unfiltered statistical data.

 

 

To the O.P:

- Why do you played your bishop at b7 at a very early stage?

Obviously, to get control over the central light squares (d5,e4)

So the right follow-up is adding more forces to control these 2 squares (...Nf6, ...e6 etc).

- Does ...c7-c5 stop d2-d4?

Obviously not, and in some cases there is the danger of that pawn advancing to d5, and limiting the b7 bishop for some time. If the pawn was sitting back at c7, he could probably undermine it by ...c6 and such.

Exactly. You're likely to get a very bad Benoni after d4-d5.

Thanks for the inputs. I did not know about Benoni and I looked it up a bit happy.png

BlumenfeldRocks

It is not a bad move.  It gains some space on the Q-side and has some influence on the centre. But it does not set White any real problems. It is not so useful as in positions where the NP is still on b7 and a route is opened for the Q to go to b6 or a5.

Other moves have more point. f5 or Nf6 to control e4 are more consistent with the development of the QB at b7. e5 has more influence on the centre and does more for Black's piece development. e6 might be best of all - releasing Q and B, increasing white square control and making d2-d4-d5 (to shut out BLack's QB) harder to achieve

marqumax

DEVELOP!

Laskersnephew

If you check #12, you will find a simple, logical, and easy to understand explanation of why c5 wasn't your best choice

goodspellr

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned, but as of 5/15/21 with engine depth set to either 15 or 18, the analysis says that c5 was "excellent" and not an "inaccuracy".

This could be due to a change in the engine since your game or due to chess.com changing how it classifies moves as "excellent", "good", or "inaccuracy".  As of 5/15/21, the engine claims there is less than a half-pawn difference between your c5 move and what it considers the best move.

Laskersnephew

"It's incorrect to call 3. ...c5 an inaccuracy, because it doesn't lead directly to a loss for black "

If it did, it would be called a "blunder." "Inaccuracy" is a pretty accurate description of a sub-optimal move

manoj05
Optimissed wrote:

It would also be incorrect to call it a blunder. ...c5 is not "sub-optimal", if you follow the explanation I gave. So early in a game, anything that doesn't lose or give the opponent a big advantage is simply an opening variation. If it were inaccurate then every opening variation that is currently out of favour would be "inaccurate".

Good point