I'm actually going to look at this 517-move computer game, if I win my game of Russian Roulette I plan on playing tonight!
517 moves w/o a capture, then a win
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okay...? no pawns = 50 move stalemate..
Oct 22, 2010
0
#4
isn't it cheating to say "517 moves without losing a piece" when more than half the pieces were lost before you started counting?
good luck trysts
This win was discovered by computer awhile back. This is a computer solution. The 50-move rule doesn't really apply. It's just a theoretical discussion. Given this position with these 7 pieces, and black playing perfect defense, it takes white 518 moves before a piece is finally captured (without losing a piece here, means no pieces were lost from this starting position until move 518). Checkmate is delivered on move 524. I think it's the longest known checkmate ever found.
In fact, this solution reinforces the 50-move draw rule in a regular chess game. No human could ever figure out that this was a checkmate, even though it is now proven.
wasn't that just a stupid blunder by black? i looked at the last few moves and the losing move looked stupid
I think black's move 420. ... Rf3-c3 is an inaccuracy
Estragon wrote:
redbirdpat wrote:
This win was discovered by computer awhile back. This is a computer solution. The 50-move rule doesn't really apply. It's just a theoretical discussion. Given this position with these 7 pieces, and black playing perfect defense, it takes white 518 moves before a piece is finally captured (without losing a piece here, means no pieces were lost from this starting position until move 518). Checkmate is delivered on move 524. I think it's the longest known checkmate ever found.
In fact, this solution reinforces the 50-move draw rule in a regular chess game. No human could ever figure out that this was a checkmate, even though it is now proven.
Um, NO.
The 50-move rule ALWAYS is in effect. You cannot suspend it, even upon agreement with the opponent (no one can force you to make a claim, but the agreement is illegal and should result in a double forfeit).
If you aren't playing by the Laws of Chess, then it isn't chess you are playing.
Once Abraham Lincoln was vexed by a Supreme Court ruling he considered completely illogical, but his cabinet insisted he must follow their ruling. He turned to an aide and asked, "How many legs does a dog have?"
The aide of course answered "Four" and Lincoln then revised the question, "And how many legs does a dog have if we call his tail a leg?" The aide replied, "Five."
But Lincoln rebuked him, saying, "No, he has four - calling a tail a leg does not make it one!"
You can call the computer experiment whatever you wish, but it isn't chess if they make 50 moves without a capture or pawn move and the weaker side does not have the ability to claim a draw.
Um, yes.
The 50-move rule doesn't apply when you are just looking for the longest possible checkmate on a computer. This is just research. What were they supposed to do? Program the computer to stop at 50, when they wanted to see if there was something beyond that, because the checkmate couldn't exist in a real game under the current rules? Should we pretend this research doesn't exist, because it doesn't conform to the current rule of 50 moves? Should we rename the research to "The longest possible checkmate, but only if they changed the 50 move rule to 1000 moves, because really, it's not a real checkmate the way the rules are written now"?
How about we just say, it's the longest possible checkmate found. I think people can figure out that it couldn't really happen in a real game because of the 50 move rule (but really, it couldn't happen without the 50 move rule, because it's too complex for a human to figure out). The 50 move rule just doesn't apply when they are searching for this solution, otherwise they never would have found it.
It's just research. Researchers can do what they want. And people can decide if there is anything of value to learn from it. If you want to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, that's your prerogative.
Estragon wrote:
redbirdpat wrote:
This win was discovered by computer awhile back. This is a computer solution. The 50-move rule doesn't really apply. It's just a theoretical discussion. Given this position with these 7 pieces, and black playing perfect defense, it takes white 518 moves before a piece is finally captured (without losing a piece here, means no pieces were lost from this starting position until move 518). Checkmate is delivered on move 524. I think it's the longest known checkmate ever found.
In fact, this solution reinforces the 50-move draw rule in a regular chess game. No human could ever figure out that this was a checkmate, even though it is now proven.
Um, NO.
The 50-move rule ALWAYS is in effect. You cannot suspend it, even upon agreement with the opponent (no one can force you to make a claim, but the agreement is illegal and should result in a double forfeit).
If you aren't playing by the Laws of Chess, then it isn't chess you are playing.
Once Abraham Lincoln was vexed by a Supreme Court ruling he considered completely illogical, but his cabinet insisted he must follow their ruling. He turned to an aide and asked, "How many legs does a dog have?"
The aide of course answered "Four" and Lincoln then revised the question, "And how many legs does a dog have if we call his tail a leg?" The aide replied, "Five."
But Lincoln rebuked him, saying, "No, he has four - calling a tail a leg does not make it one!"
You can call the computer experiment whatever you wish, but it isn't chess if they make 50 moves without a capture or pawn move and the weaker side does not have the ability to claim a draw.
Actually, unless I'm mistaken, the 50-move rule must be claimed by either player in order to take effect (similar to three-move repetition...not sure about stalemate though). So it's perfectly possible to go on if both players agree not to claim the draw.
Tyzer,
You are correct.
"A game is not automatically declared a draw under the fifty-move rule – the draw must be claimed by a player on his turn to move. Therefore a game can continue beyond a point where a draw could be claimed under the rule. Theoretically, a game could continue indefinitely this way; but in practice, when a draw under the fifty-move rule can be claimed, one of the players is usually happy to claim it (Hooper & Whyld 1992)."
Don't feed the troll?
[COMMENT DELETED]
I don't even know what you guys are getting heated up about. The 50 move rule is the most arbitrary one in chess. The rest of such game ending rules are simply based on the game and pieces (like threefold repetition, insufficient mating material). The 50 move rule is more based on experience than it is based on a theoretical background. This limit may even have shifted a few times in chess rulebook history (35 move rule?) - although I must admit here that I haven't done extensive Googling research on the subject. I do know that there are guys out there that think you have to mate within 20 moves after they have captured their opponent's last piece :p
But I remember (yes, assisted by Google) that in 2007, after 49 moves Shirov had rook and bishop vs. two knights for mate in 208 on the board against Karjakin. Sadly he would have to capture one of the knights within the first fifty moves while with correct play by white this should not be possible. On the 93rd move he gave up trying and it was a draw ten moves later.
"Chess discoveries" like the one given by Bourzutschky and Konoval, and more practical occurrences of "deep endgame wins" in grandmaster games combined might lead to an higher draw-claim number in the future. Maybe we will have the 75 move rule in twenty years from now. I don't know. Who cares. It's not something I am going to fight about on the Internet.
heinzie wrote:
I don't even know what you guys are getting heated up about. The 50 move rule is the most arbitrary one in chess. The rest of such game ending rules are simply based on the game and pieces (like threefold repetition, insufficient mating material). The 50 move rule is more based on experience than it is based on a theoretical background. This limit may even have shifted a few times in chess rulebook history (35 move rule?) - although I must admit here that I haven't done extensive Googling research on the subject. I do know that there are guys out there that think you have to mate within 20 moves after they have captured their opponent's last piece :p
But I remember (yes, assisted by Google) that in 2007, after 49 moves Shirov had rook and bishop vs. two knights for mate in 208 on the board against Karjakin. Sadly he would have to capture one of the knights within the first fifty moves while with correct play by white this should not be possible. On the 93rd move he gave up trying and it was a draw ten moves later.
"Chess discoveries" like the one given by Bourzutschky and Konoval, and more practical occurrences of "deep endgame wins" in grandmaster games combined might lead to an higher draw-claim number in the future. Maybe we will have the 75 move rule in twenty years from now. I don't know.
You're right, of course, it is arbitrary.
But you have to draw the line somewhere, I think. If somebody fails to mate me with N+B, I wouldn't like to give him a second bite of the cherry. I think in this case a win would be unfair.
But, as far as I understand, there are quite a few Q+P vs Q positions that are won after 50 moves. I think in this case a draw would be unfair.
So, I don't know......
Estragon wrote:
redbirdpat wrote:
This win was discovered by computer awhile back. This is a computer solution. The 50-move rule doesn't really apply. It's just a theoretical discussion. Given this position with these 7 pieces, and black playing perfect defense, it takes white 518 moves before a piece is finally captured (without losing a piece here, means no pieces were lost from this starting position until move 518). Checkmate is delivered on move 524. I think it's the longest known checkmate ever found.
In fact, this solution reinforces the 50-move draw rule in a regular chess game. No human could ever figure out that this was a checkmate, even though it is now proven.
Um, NO.
The 50-move rule ALWAYS is in effect. You cannot suspend it, even upon agreement with the opponent (no one can force you to make a claim, but the agreement is illegal and should result in a double forfeit).
If you aren't playing by the Laws of Chess, then it isn't chess you are playing.
Once Abraham Lincoln was vexed by a Supreme Court ruling he considered completely illogical, but his cabinet insisted he must follow their ruling. He turned to an aide and asked, "How many legs does a dog have?"
The aide of course answered "Four" and Lincoln then revised the question, "And how many legs does a dog have if we call his tail a leg?" The aide replied, "Five."
But Lincoln rebuked him, saying, "No, he has four - calling a tail a leg does not make it one!"
You can call the computer experiment whatever you wish, but it isn't chess if they make 50 moves without a capture or pawn move and the weaker side does not have the ability to claim a draw.
There are exceptions to the 50 move rule. If you are in a position that is forced mate is 75 you can say "Yes, this position is forced mate in 75" and the 50 move rule will be suspended. The only problem is you have to know you are in such a position.
A computer can't "play chess" because a computer lacks the notions of joy in the human concept of "play".
/argument
uhohspaghettio wrote:
White to play and mate in 517 moves.
Actually it seems to be black to move and get mated in 525 moves
trysts wrote:
I'm actually going to look at this 517-move computer game, if I win my game of Russian Roulette I plan on playing tonight!
It seems like Trysts lost his game of russian roulette.
Crudus wrote:
There are exceptions to the 50 move rule. If you are in a position that is forced mate is 75 you can say "Yes, this position is forced mate in 75" and the 50 move rule will be suspended. The only problem is you have to know you are in such a position.
Nope. This used to be the case; but as endgame tablebases developed it was found that there were a lot of previously-thought-drawn positions which required more than 50 moves to win; so now the 50-move rule is a bright-line rule that applies to every position regardless of whether there is a win in more than 50 moves. Well, as long as one of the players claims it, at least.
The longest 7-piece win--without capturing a piece for 517 moves--as figured out by computers:
http://www.gothicchess.com/endings/chess_kqnkrbn/game.htm