Has pellsworth been here since 2010?
Is Chess anything more than memorization?
Sort:
chess is science, math, geography and everyone has a formula on how to play it
chess is science, math, geography and everyone has a formula on how to play it
chess is like roulette: its about luck
Feb 18, 2020
0
#26
RoundHipsSharpTongue wrote:
pellsworth wrote:
*snipaygnr*
I am still very new to chess and have already beaten people who have played seriously for decades and have backgrounds in tournaments and books and studies and under coaches and blah blah blah. Good chess can be played through memorization, or through intelligence / artifice or whatever. All the things that lead you to making better moves and understanding or imitating better understood chess are simply means to the end. Collectively, we can call it skill or ability.
Oh dear...
Feb 18, 2020
0
#27
Chess is a pattern recognition game and does require much memorization of patterns, such as pins forks discoveries double checks etc. Also basic checkmate patterns such as bishop rook corner mate to name one of the simplest. The patterns recur however, the pieces aren't in the same places, thus you need to recognize the familiar pattern in a never before seen position; the more you see, and the faster you see, the more you win. I've read that a GM knows at least 50,000 patterns to include openings, middle game strategy and endgames, not to mention the serious tactical ability necessary to become a good player. Chess.com has many excellent lessons online for everyone to learn and improve.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#28
its not memorization at all.
what about playing the violin? isn't it just memorizing sheet music?
that was a rhetorical question, by the way. To those who appreciate classical music, it's obvious the answer is a resounding "NO!"
same goes for chess, its an art.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#29
With all due respect, chess, AND the violin too, DO require memorization! That however, doesn't mean there is no room to improvise; at the higher levels the real game often doesn't begin until after both players play all the known strongest moves up until some point, in some lines to move 29; at some point in a game one player deviates from known opening theory and then it's how you handle your pieces, the position, the tactics. If you don't memorize a few things, you'll surely lose every game. Pattern recognition is about memorization, to recognize the pattern; AND UNDERSTANDING, so that when you see it, you know what to do. Memorizing is simply a part of chess, but a very important part.
"To become a grandmaster is very difficult and can take quite a long time! ... you need to ... solve many exercises, analyse your games, study classic games, modern games, have an opening repertoire and so on. Basically, it is hard work ... It takes a lot more than just reading books to become a grandmaster I am afraid." - GM Artur Yusupov (2013)
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/QandAwithArturYusupovQualityChessAugust2013.pdf
Feb 18, 2020
0
#32
hard work spent doing what? memorization? your quote doesn't shed any light onto the answer to this question, @kindaquotey
doing analysis, exercises, studying classics and building an opening repertoire could be all argued to be purely memorization. you need to specify.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#33
"doing analysis, exercises, studying classics and building an opening repertoire could be all argued to be purely memorization"
Exactly what I was getting at when I brought this up again. I have a mensa-level IQ and yet I get destroyed by people who are at ~700 or higher. There are just things they do that I don't see coming. Surely if I keep playing this game for 10 years, I will have seen pretty much all of that, and then those players will no longer beat me. What happens then??? I get my score up to around 800 or so and people with other tricks I haven't seen will be beating me.
If it isn't memorization, they how can GM's clobber people in blitz games? It's because they'll see a pattern they've seen a 1000 times and they can make their move in a split second, where I have to think still.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#34
EricFleet wrote:
It is all memorization. The trick is simply remembering all of the
1, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 positions. Once you have done this, you will be at least a National Master.
I think you have around three times as many zeros as you should have.
The problem is that remembering the positions doesn't help. You won't be an NM unless you can also remember a pretty good move for each position and this could take some time to work out even with a third of the zeros.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#35
"what about playing the violin? isn't it just memorizing sheet music?"
No, but the nice-sounding noise you produce is DEFINITELY from "MUSCLE MEMORY". Just like an NBA player who continually makes baskets from different distances...he has those shots down in his muscle memory because he/she has practiced them over and over. Conversely, when someone first starts playing basketball, they will miss almost every shot they attempt, no matter how athletically gifted they are. But once they have trained those shots into their muscle memory, they are good now. I would assume the same goes for playing the violin: at first you read the sheet music and sound terrible...after some muscle "memory" you can read the same music and sound nice playing it.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#37
GoGophers wrote:
"what about playing the violin? isn't it just memorizing sheet music?"
No, but the nice-sounding noise you produce is DEFINITELY from "MUSCLE MEMORY". Just like an NBA player who continually makes baskets from different distances...he has those shots down in his muscle memory because he/she has practiced them over and over. Conversely, when someone first starts playing basketball, they will miss almost every shot they attempt, no matter how athletically gifted they are. But once they have trained those shots into their muscle memory, they are good now. I would assume the same goes for playing the violin: at first you read the sheet music and sound terrible...after some muscle "memory" you can read the same music and sound nice playing it.
sure, but i can say from experience, that it isnt ALL muscle memory.
for example, all the great violinists play with "personality" almost. they each add their own unique flair to the piece. also, when they're playing, you can see, they close their eyes, move to the music, etc.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#38
I think 138 and higher gets you into mensa. When you take the test, they won't tell you your score - they just tell you if you are in the top 2% or not. They said the reason they don't reveal your score is that doctors were sending people like Forrest Gump to take the $30 mensa exam to find out their low IQ, as opposed to paying like $600 for a psych exam or something. So by not telling you your score, now only people genuinely interested in mensa will take the exam.
Feb 18, 2020
0
#39
Ok, how about saying great violinists are like GMs, they rely on more than just memorization, but for people who aren't masters, going against someone who has seen/experienced way more games, that person will almost always win. How about my analogy of Forrest Gump (low, low IQ) playing 10,000 games and being able to beat a super genius like Einstein in Einstein's first games? Would you agree that an experienced Forrest Gump would dominate a newby Einstein?
Feb 18, 2020
0
#40
oh, okay, okay.
well there isnt a proven correlation between iq and chess skills. iq is something you are (for the most part) born with. Obviously for chess, people are just naturally talented, but if you dont love the game and experiment, you likely wont get very far. take, for example, mikhail tal, the "wizard of riga", he certainly didn't memorize all of his brilliant sacrifices. in fact, his sacrifices are exactly the ones TRYING to be memorized. imo, just memorizing something isnt as beneficial as experimentation. because then your just copying other people ...and whats the fun in that? 
As a new player, I kind of agree that it's just memorization. At least for us beginners. I'll be playing someone rated about like me, ~700, and they will perform some killer move that they memorized from watching youtube.
MAYBE once you get past this early going and learn how to defend against some common traps and openings, THEN it becomes more about "understanding the game"? But I'd bet a lot of money that Forrest Gump could play 10,000 games of chess, memorize a few things along the way, and then annihilate Albert Einstein if it was one of Einstein's first games. So clearly raw intelligence has nothing to do with this game.