Pawn Promotion Is Ridiculous

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Avatar of MHX-DON
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
MHX-DON wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
second_account wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

My first response to this suggestion is this puzzle:

And this one:

Both of these the only winning moves are to promote to knights, whether 3 or 8 of them end up on the board. Feel free to check out my underpromotion thread for more examples of why sometimes multiple underpromotions are necessary, (one of which requires 5 consecutive bishop promotions!)

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/endgames/best-underpromotion-endgame-compilation

My 2nd response is what would you propose for the pawn instead? To stay as a stale pawn on the 8th/1st rank?

Uhmmm you do realise that that these are intended puzzles can be only solved if you have like 1000 bishops or something. It's just an exaggeration, so don't quote me on it. This particular puzzle will be invalid if the rule of the pawn promotion was restricted.

Well I propose, the pawns will just be sitting on the 7th or 2nd rank if all the pieces are still not captured. It will be another illegal move added to the game if the pawn promotes to the the pieces that exceeds the limit. I don't think you're quite getting what im saying. Let's say your one knight and two rooks get captured in the middle of the game, and then you have the pawn to promote. If you wish to promote, then you can only promote to either a knight or a rook because they are no longer present on the board. If none of your pieces get captured then you cannot legally promote. They sit on the 7th or 2nd rank until one of the pieces get captured then they can make a legal promotion.

Wait, what? So you are saying not only should there be a universal piece limit on the board, but that pawns should only be able to promote to pieces the position is lacking?? The 2nd position I posted is very realistic, and a 3 knights endgame is a basic chess endgame. Note that if white promotes to anything else, the queen comes down to the back rank forcing white to give up one of the knights to block the check. And a 1 knight advantage in a queen vs queen endgame is extremely drawish. I don't get the 2nd part about pawns "sitting" on the 7th rank? Are you saying those pawns can't move at all if too many other pieces are on the board? So those pawns can't capture on the 8th rank either? Piece movements should be contigent on the available movement of other pieces. Also, if I understand what you are saying correctly, white couldn't promote to another queen in this position:

Having multiple of the same piece on the board doesn't mean it's an advantage, the other side can have different pieces that more than compensate.

Well you're just picking the worst example positions to try to "disprove" my point. Yes, I'm saying white cannot promote to another queen if a queen is already on the board and yes pawns will just be sitting on the 2nd last rank and wont be able to capture pieces because all the pieces are still in the game. I think you're just a bit confused with this idea. If a queen is already on the board but some other pieces are captured, then the pawn can promote to only bring back captured pieces. It's not like pawns must wait until the queen gets captured. This is very rare that pawns reach the 7th rank and none of your pieces are captured yet. There would have been trade off's, you can bring back those pieces.

In this example, White will have to figure out a way to draw or win the game without promoting to another queen. If he can't, then he loses. The flaw to your point is that you're already assuming that pawns can promote to whatever and how many pieces they want by their nature. That's the very thing I'm arguing against. You keep saying, naturally almost everyone promotes to queens unless there's a very specific reason not to. This is the problem I'm trying to argue, and you're not getting it. What I'm saying is that with the restricted pawn promotion, then the players will be forced to under promote which makes it more difficult to checkmate the king. Therefore, you need more strategies. If you just have queens than it's very easy to checkmate unless if your opponent is very smart and counter play. Then that will just be your fault. It's on you. Don't blame the promotion.

My puzzle was to show why a player should be able to promote to a knight even if the 2 knights were still on the board , the solution was to underpromote to a knight, instant checkmate! Don't tell me you didn't see that solution. I think you are the one who's trolling, if you think positions involving underpromotion make the game less complex and strategic and interesting. Pieces should be independent of other pieces, pawns shouldn't be immobile because whatever they could promote to are "taken". That's beyond absurd. The other argument that having 2 or 3 queens makes the game too easy to win LOL well maybe if you play better you wouldn't facilitate the opponent getting 3 queens. So it's ok for a player to have 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 7 pawns, but not 2 queens and a king? Alright, my turn to troll! Pawns should be able to promote to opposite color pieces as well:

B8 = black knight #

I think you don't even know what you're talking about. You're lost of words. You keep saying oh, "if they didn't promote to a knight then there won't be an instant checkmate with 3 knights on board." You do realise that you just proved my point? You simply just disproved yourself, it's hilarious. Obviously, the game is easy to have many pieces of the same kind. What they have to do if they played my way, is to figure out a creative plan to checkmate without needing it to be an instant. Therefore, it's more strategic. You keep using made up puzzles to disprove me. It doesn't work, I'm not sure if you know.

Avatar of MHX-DON
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

According to his logic I'd have to lose this endgame since I have 2 knights I have no right to promote a 3rd, despite the fact that my knights will taken in the next few moves if I dont.

Or, you can promote it to the queen because you don't have a queen. Simply use your brain, you want everything to be easy. Work for it!

Avatar of MHX-DON
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

ACTUALLY white could probably force a draw in that endgame with perpetual check. Here's a better example where promoting to anything other than a knight would definitely lose:

Why shouldn't white be allowed to promote to a knight here (note he said no more than 2 of any piece, not just queens)

Ok, maybe not type anymore because I just realised you're just trolling.

Avatar of Chessentine

Interesting topic, probably need to reflect on this more. restricting pawn promotions hmmm... one thing I was thinking of was that, not all pawns are equal. The ones in the center are more powerful to begin with, but then in the late game, the rook pawns are wild cards as well.

Avatar of Ibrahimkashif123
What is you already had two bishops and you promote to a third one ?
Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
MHX-DON wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

According to his logic I'd have to lose this endgame since I have 2 knights I have no right to promote a 3rd, despite the fact that my knights will taken in the next few moves if I dont.

Or, you can promote it to the queen because you don't have a queen. Simply use your brain, you want everything to be easy. Work for it!

But promoting to a queen isn't the best move. Why should I not be allowed to make the best move in the position cause you don't want to "deal with 3 knights". That's totally counter to the complexity and beauty of chess. Only a beginner/troll would claim chess rules should purely be based on the number of pieces each side has.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
MHX-DON wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
MHX-DON wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
second_account wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

My first response to this suggestion is this puzzle:

And this one:

Both of these the only winning moves are to promote to knights, whether 3 or 8 of them end up on the board. Feel free to check out my underpromotion thread for more examples of why sometimes multiple underpromotions are necessary, (one of which requires 5 consecutive bishop promotions!)

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/endgames/best-underpromotion-endgame-compilation

My 2nd response is what would you propose for the pawn instead? To stay as a stale pawn on the 8th/1st rank?

Uhmmm you do realise that that these are intended puzzles can be only solved if you have like 1000 bishops or something. It's just an exaggeration, so don't quote me on it. This particular puzzle will be invalid if the rule of the pawn promotion was restricted.

Well I propose, the pawns will just be sitting on the 7th or 2nd rank if all the pieces are still not captured. It will be another illegal move added to the game if the pawn promotes to the the pieces that exceeds the limit. I don't think you're quite getting what im saying. Let's say your one knight and two rooks get captured in the middle of the game, and then you have the pawn to promote. If you wish to promote, then you can only promote to either a knight or a rook because they are no longer present on the board. If none of your pieces get captured then you cannot legally promote. They sit on the 7th or 2nd rank until one of the pieces get captured then they can make a legal promotion.

Wait, what? So you are saying not only should there be a universal piece limit on the board, but that pawns should only be able to promote to pieces the position is lacking?? The 2nd position I posted is very realistic, and a 3 knights endgame is a basic chess endgame. Note that if white promotes to anything else, the queen comes down to the back rank forcing white to give up one of the knights to block the check. And a 1 knight advantage in a queen vs queen endgame is extremely drawish. I don't get the 2nd part about pawns "sitting" on the 7th rank? Are you saying those pawns can't move at all if too many other pieces are on the board? So those pawns can't capture on the 8th rank either? Piece movements should be contigent on the available movement of other pieces. Also, if I understand what you are saying correctly, white couldn't promote to another queen in this position:

Having multiple of the same piece on the board doesn't mean it's an advantage, the other side can have different pieces that more than compensate.

Well you're just picking the worst example positions to try to "disprove" my point. Yes, I'm saying white cannot promote to another queen if a queen is already on the board and yes pawns will just be sitting on the 2nd last rank and wont be able to capture pieces because all the pieces are still in the game. I think you're just a bit confused with this idea. If a queen is already on the board but some other pieces are captured, then the pawn can promote to only bring back captured pieces. It's not like pawns must wait until the queen gets captured. This is very rare that pawns reach the 7th rank and none of your pieces are captured yet. There would have been trade off's, you can bring back those pieces.

In this example, White will have to figure out a way to draw or win the game without promoting to another queen. If he can't, then he loses. The flaw to your point is that you're already assuming that pawns can promote to whatever and how many pieces they want by their nature. That's the very thing I'm arguing against. You keep saying, naturally almost everyone promotes to queens unless there's a very specific reason not to. This is the problem I'm trying to argue, and you're not getting it. What I'm saying is that with the restricted pawn promotion, then the players will be forced to under promote which makes it more difficult to checkmate the king. Therefore, you need more strategies. If you just have queens than it's very easy to checkmate unless if your opponent is very smart and counter play. Then that will just be your fault. It's on you. Don't blame the promotion.

My puzzle was to show why a player should be able to promote to a knight even if the 2 knights were still on the board , the solution was to underpromote to a knight, instant checkmate! Don't tell me you didn't see that solution. I think you are the one who's trolling, if you think positions involving underpromotion make the game less complex and strategic and interesting. Pieces should be independent of other pieces, pawns shouldn't be immobile because whatever they could promote to are "taken". That's beyond absurd. The other argument that having 2 or 3 queens makes the game too easy to win LOL well maybe if you play better you wouldn't facilitate the opponent getting 3 queens. So it's ok for a player to have 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 7 pawns, but not 2 queens and a king? Alright, my turn to troll! Pawns should be able to promote to opposite color pieces as well:

B8 = black knight #

I think you don't even know what you're talking about. You're lost of words. You keep saying oh, "if they didn't promote to a knight then there won't be an instant checkmate with 3 knights on board." You do realise that you just proved my point? You simply just disproved yourself, it's hilarious. Obviously, the game is easy to have many pieces of the same kind. What they have to do if they played my way, is to figure out a creative plan to checkmate without needing it to be an instant. Therefore, it's more strategic. You keep using made up puzzles to disprove me. It doesn't work, I'm not sure if you know.

No, you don't know what I'm talking about. It's obviously beyond your comprehension. You started this troll topic, then accuse me of trolling. You want to limit moves your opponent can play cause you don't like your opponent having too many pieces. You want to strip your opponent of the right to make a perfectly legal move so he doesn't have too many of the same piece! (Not that this would be an issue for me anyway since I could mate you with a knight and bishop vs a lone king) but you seem like the type who would fall for a pawn checkmate anyway even if you had every one of your pieces on the board.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

2 queens is much easier to mate with than 1. There was even a grandmaster game played where 6 queens (3 on each side ended up the board) it was in one of gothams recap videos. It was fair as both sides ended up getting 3 queens and it was an interesting game. This guy would have wanted them to promote to bishops and rooks and knights for no reason.

Avatar of The_Blue_Nightshade

in time trouble /bullet chess, people will need more pieces

they CANNOT just think about it

--

YOU ARE THE WORST TROLL EVER

--

@MHX-DON

Avatar of SriyoTheGreat

"There was even a grandmaster game played where 2 queens, 4 rooks (1 queen and 2 rooks on each side ended up the board) it was in one of gothams recap videos. It was fair as both sides ended up getting 1 queen and 2 rooks and it was an interesting game. This guy would have wanted them to promote to all queens for no reason." - @EndgameEnthusiast2357 in the alternate universe

Avatar of SriyoTheGreat

just sayin this could be a reality too

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

It's already happened:

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

One of the Bobby Fischer - Tigran Petrosian match games had 4 queens. Imagine if they weren't allowed to promote the pawns.

Also I find it ridiculous that someone with 2 rooks, 2 bishops, and 2 knights, but no queen, could promote a pawn to a queen, but a guy with 1 queen, and no other pieces, couldn't. 2R2B2N is more than twice the material as a queen, yet the guy with the single queen can only make a rook, whereas the guy with 22 points of material can make a whole queen? That is the insanity you are proposing, How the hell is that fair and strategic??

Avatar of SriyoTheGreat

And so has this

Avatar of SriyoTheGreat

Just sayin

Avatar of SriyoTheGreat

But in all seriousness what I mean is, there would be no difference if it was the other way around. Taking one game out of billions of games that happened doesn't prove a potential rule is bad.

Avatar of Optimissed

Another troll thread?

Avatar of MHX-DON
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
MHX-DON wrote:
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

According to his logic I'd have to lose this endgame since I have 2 knights I have no right to promote a 3rd, despite the fact that my knights will taken in the next few moves if I dont.

Or, you can promote it to the queen because you don't have a queen. Simply use your brain, you want everything to be easy. Work for it!

But promoting to a queen isn't the best move. Why should I not be allowed to make the best move in the position cause you don't want to "deal with 3 knights". That's totally counter to the complexity and beauty of chess. Only a beginner/troll would claim chess rules should purely be based on the number of pieces each side has.

Ok, I'm not gonna read the rest of your nonsense. Let me simply made this clear. The question you asked, "why can't I promote to the knight, and checkmate the king even if I have 2 knights already on the board?". The simple answer to this stupid question is that, it'll be considered as an illegal move in my version of chess. It's like asking, "why can't I en passant in the next move? I got my bishop lined up to checkmate and is the best move if I can enpassant even when I didn't en passant immediately. " Because, you can't! That's the rule. Therefore, it's illegal to make that move. Get this through your head kid. So, stop asking this stupid question.

The question you should really be asking is, "how did white not see what black is doing?". Before you get into this particular position, you know white and black have made certain moves. And because white did not see what black was trying to do, and instead he just rushed with the pawn, now he's going to end up losing or get a draw because black was smart enough to see white has two knights and it can't promote to the third one, so black used that information to make great moves. If white saw what kind of situation he's in, then he could've prevented that and made other moves. See, there's already advanced strategies and it will make the game more interesting. That's only saying if this position actually came from an actual game. I'm 99.99% sure that you just made that sh*tty puzzle to try to disprove me. But it actually proved my point further.

And you keep talking about underpromotion is good and useful. I never said it wasn't. I'm with underpromotion, that's why I came up with this suggestion that will force players to actually underpromote and make the use of other pieces, instead of queening the pawns all the time. It seems like you want easy chess, not hard chess.

Case closed!

Avatar of MHX-DON
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:

2 queens is much easier to mate with than 1. There was even a grandmaster game played where 6 queens (3 on each side ended up the board) it was in one of gothams recap videos. It was fair as both sides ended up getting 3 queens and it was an interesting game. This guy would have wanted them to promote to bishops and rooks and knights for no reason.

Again, you want easy chess. Not hard chess with more advanced strategies. My point still stands.

Case closed, again, troll!