Tactics Trainer Problem Difficulty

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nameno1had
Martin0 wrote:
nameno1had wrote:
Martin0 wrote:
nameno1had wrote:
Martin0 wrote:

Did some problems on my android. No idea why I got so low rated problems or why I was allowed to do this many tactics at the same day. Hard to maintain a rating with problems rated 1000 points below.

Mar 22, 2013 1:41 AM 0051998 1166 2037 2/2 1:01 0:21 Passed (95% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:40 AM 0033508 1244 2036 3/3 1:02 0:59 Passed (81% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:39 AM 0029466 1106 2035 4/4 1:49 1:01 Passed (89% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:38 AM 0048779 1056 2034 4/4 0:52 0:40 Passed (85% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:36 AM 0000793 1187 2033 0/3 1:47 1:12 Failed (0% | -37) Mar 22, 2013 1:35 AM 0052316 1124 2070 3/3 1:16 0:15 Passed (100% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:35 AM 0033571 1123 2069 3/3 1:57 1:21 Passed (86% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:33 AM 0027811 965 2068 2/2 1:12 0:59 Passed (84% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:32 AM 0000746 1057 2067 1/1 0:40 0:10 Passed (98% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:32 AM 0000905 980 2066 3/3 1:09 0:45 Passed (87% | +1) Mar 22, 2013 1:31 AM 0000766 824 2065 2/2 1:14 0:23 Passed (96% | +1)

I am not sure why you failed the one problem that is nearly 1000 points below your rating. It could have been a touch screen issue. Phones suck for that. I won't even try the TT on my phone because of failing, due to it.

I often feel that the system for which they are established in difficulty by rating is severly flawed.

If you failed it because, you simply had a different and most likely, completely winning idea, that was .001 of a point below the computer's assessment, especially, if it was a 7 move puzzle, you shouldn't get dinged for it in my opinion, to begin with. I get frustrated when I see 2 move puzzles that I can solve in 3 tries that are rated 2000+, but 5 to 7 move puzzles at my rating range, that take 5 to 10 tries. That is pretty good evidence to suggest that we get dinged for choosing lines that are winning when we shouldn't and that the system for predetermining difficulty is flawed.

I propose a system that rewards you according to your true ability, as opposed to how often you can match a specific engine's top choice for a move. My goal isn't match Houdini move for move. The last time I checked, that gets you banned. I should instead be rewarded for chosing winning lines. That is the goal of any chess player, at any level.

You don't need to speculate too much why I failed a puzzle. It was a good puzzle and I simply don't manage to solve all problems rated that low. I'm not that consistent at solving lower rated puzzles. I just couldn't see a knight fork for some reason.

If that is the case, it lends even more creedance to what I am saying. Master level players shouldn't make mistakes that that sub 1200 players make...I realize even GM's make silly mistakes from time to time. If a puzzle is really worthy of that rating in my opinion, you don't make that mistake.

Having said all of this, considering I am not a computer programmer, I am not sure how to incorporate a preattempted rating system for puzzles, or a way to integrate a system for rewarding a player for choosing winning lines. This could be done on a basis of points rewarded for how close to the best and all of the way down to a drawing line, for which you would be rewarded nothing. When you play losing moves, that is when you should get dinged. Also, the system should be set up so that you can chose it to reward or penalize according to the type of chess you play and the difficulty of the problem. Three out of the 10 people who try a puzzle might have gotten lucky and picked the right move quickly, driving the average solved time down, too low, while 7 people might have failed it. My skill shouldn't be required to keep pace with the luck of others.

Well, having a tactics rating of 2000+ doesn't makes me a master level player.

There are some bad problems with several winning lines, but those are just bad problems that should be removed/changed (since alternative winning lines currently isn't an option). It shouldn't matter how close you are from solving a puzzle, a failed puzzle is a failed puzzle. I don't care weather you turn a win into a draw or a win into a loss, both should result in a failed puzzle.

I wasn't saying you are a master level player, was using it as an example. The disparities were proportional that I was referring to. To look at it another, using your example of turning a win into a draw or blowing a draw and then losing, remember the key to it in my statement of choosing winning lines and being rewarded for it. If there are 10 winning lines, all with different scores according to an engine, when choosing tactics, we should be rated and rewarded according to our ability, not our ability or inability to match an engines top choice. Top GM's don't even do that everytime and if you happened to be able to do it OTB, or at Chess.com, you would be accussed of cheating. We shouldn't be training ourselves to play like engines. We don't even understand their logic past a certain point, no matter our level of play...

You should really accept the obvious.

Martin0
nameno1had wrote:

I wasn't saying you are a master level player, was using it as an example. The disparities were proportional that I was referring to. To look at it another, using your example of turning a win into a draw or blowing a draw and then losing, remember the key to it in my statement of choosing winning lines and being rewarded for it. If there are 10 winning lines, all with different scores according to an engine, when choosing tactics, we should be rated and rewarded according to our ability, not our ability or inability to match an engines top choice. Top GM's don't even do that everytime and if you happened to be able to do it OTB, or at Chess.com, you would be accussed of cheating. We shouldn't be training ourselves to play like engines. We don't even understand their logic past a certain point, no matter our level of play...

You should really accept the obvious.

Since it's supposed to always be only one correct line in tactics trainer, I don't understand what you are talking about. The correct line match the engines top choice, which is why a computer can check if it is a good puzzle, but that doesn't mean we train ourselves to play like an engine. We just train at solving tactics. To give you an idea of good problems (which isn't true for all problems), below is guidelines for new problems (taken from this forum).

 

1)Each best move is at least +2.5 better than the next best move

2) The position resulting from each next best move is evaluated by a strong computeras having a value of no greater than +0.3 (up to +1 may be allowed if the main move is very strong. 

So at each step the solution move must be the only winning move (otherwise the problem is 'ambiguous'), or only move to prevent a loss (for example perpetual check or stalemate). If a tactic is very strong you may need to remove/add quite a lot of material from the starting position. This is stricter than guidelines issued by chess.com. Please don't use this thread to debate whether higher values should be allowed)

examples allowed :

solution move +2.7, next best move +0.2

solution move 0, next best move -2.6

solution move +0.8, next best move -1.8

solution move +10, next best move +0.8

solution move forced mate, next best move +0.9

Examples not allowed :

solution move forced mate, next best move mate in more moves

solution move forced mate, next best move greater than +1.0

nameno1had
Martin0 wrote:
nameno1had wrote:

I wasn't saying you are a master level player, was using it as an example. The disparities were proportional that I was referring to. To look at it another, using your example of turning a win into a draw or blowing a draw and then losing, remember the key to it in my statement of choosing winning lines and being rewarded for it. If there are 10 winning lines, all with different scores according to an engine, when choosing tactics, we should be rated and rewarded according to our ability, not our ability or inability to match an engines top choice. Top GM's don't even do that everytime and if you happened to be able to do it OTB, or at Chess.com, you would be accussed of cheating. We shouldn't be training ourselves to play like engines. We don't even understand their logic past a certain point, no matter our level of play...

You should really accept the obvious.

Since it's supposed to always be only one correct line in tactics trainer, I don't understand what you are talking about. The correct line match the engines top choice, which is why a computer can check if it is a good puzzle, but that doesn't mean we train ourselves to play like an engine. We just train at solving tactics. To give you an idea of good problems (which isn't true for all problems), below is guidelines for new problems (taken from this forum).

 

1)Each best move is at least +2.5 better than the next best move

2) The position resulting from each next best move is evaluated by a strong computeras having a value of no greater than +0.3 (up to +1 may be allowed if the main move is very strong. 

So at each step the solution move must be the only winning move (otherwise the problem is 'ambiguous'), or only move to prevent a loss (for example perpetual check or stalemate). If a tactic is very strong you may need to remove/add quite a lot of material from the starting position. This is stricter than guidelines issued by chess.com. Please don't use this thread to debate whether higher values should be allowed)

examples allowed :

solution move +2.7, next best move +0.2

solution move 0, next best move -2.6

solution move +0.8, next best move -1.8

solution move +10, next best move +0.8

solution move forced mate, next best move +0.9

Examples not allowed :

solution move forced mate, next best move mate in more moves

solution move forced mate, next best move greater than +1.0

I understood all of that before you decided to type it. A good program can also show the next best line, etc, etc...

Stupid question for you...If you played a puzzle with the aptitude of Bobby Fischer, wouldn't it tick you off a bit that you were told you were wrong, because your moves didn't match Houdini 3 ?

If you are that strong tactically, the system should be able to recognize it and reward you for it, especially in multi move puzzles that tend to have a greater likelyhood of ambiguity...

woton

The objective  of tactics training is to teach.  That's why the you are supposed to find the best move, not just a good move.  If you don't get penalized for not finding the best move, then you will learn nothing.

nameno1had
woton wrote:

The objective  of tactics training is to teach.  That's why the you are supposed to find the best move, not just a good move.  If you don't get penalized for not finding the best move, then you will learn nothing.

You are wrong, there is more than one way to win sometimes...finding a win, is still a win...Do you get more points in a tournament for a higher match percentage to Houdini, during one of your games ?

bravo433

help!!!

woton
nameno1had wrote:
 

...You are wrong, there is more than one way to win sometimes...finding a win, is still a win...Do you get more points in a tournament for a higher match percentage to Houdini, during one of your games ?

For what it's worth.  I like to learn different ways of doing things.  In some situations, the ways that I know don't work.

To each his own.

Martin0
nameno1had wrote:
woton wrote:

The objective  of tactics training is to teach.  That's why the you are supposed to find the best move, not just a good move.  If you don't get penalized for not finding the best move, then you will learn nothing.

You are wrong, there is more than one way to win sometimes...finding a win, is still a win...Do you get more points in a tournament for a higher match percentage to Houdini, during one of your games ?

If you understood my point it is always supposed to be only one move that clearly is best. I won't try to explain it further why you should only be rewarded for playing the best move.

andrewmay

Erik,

4 days since you said you would tweak it and I'm still getting problems that are 150-200 problems below my rating.  When can we expect to notice an improvement?

erik

should be going live this week! but you still might get problems below your rating if you failed them before. just not 200+ points below.

gimmewuchagot

It's really not fun. I can get 5 problems in a row and go up about 30 points, and then get 2 wrong and go down 50. It's really painful.

erik

remember, your rating is a relative reflection of your strength, not a bank account :D

gimmewuchagot

True, but it seems, on a good TT day, like today, my rating goes up 2600-2650, but on a bad TT day, my rating can go 2600-2450.

Josechu

Looking forward to seeing what happens with the new algorithm. Can't wait! Smile

gimmewuchagot

And after this new algorithm comes out, hopefully my above complaints won't be valid anymore! Tongue Out

andrewmay

My last six problems of today's TT were all 300 points below my current rating. 

RBS503

Since July, EVERY time I use the Tactics Trainer it freeze at the end of a game or right after the a move where the screen shows a frame overlay of highlighted squares on top of the original position. Both of these events force a request to run an application that does not exisit on my machine.

The only way I've found to get around it is to refresh.

Sceadungen

I have solved this by wiping out my rating and starting again the variety of problems has improved, job done you might think oh no.

Now, I am on Windows 8, the screen is jumping around seeminglt at random, to such an extent you do not know where you are, or even if you are on the same problem.

 

you need to

a) sort out the algorithm that serves up an endless stream of low rated problems, a box in settings choosing a problem range would sort this one

b) when you make the ciorrect move it sometimes says "correct move " and then resets to the original position

c) When "b"  happens it will inevitably "red banner you" as you are now unable to make a sensible move and refuse to show a solution you then have to  " try again" to find where you went wrong.  

The result of all this is seething frustration

Martin0

A minor thing I think would be good is that if someone gets the same problem twice, the problem should treat it as unrated (although it could still be rated for the player solving). Since the problem solver have seen the problem before I don't think its fair to judge the difficulty of the problem. 

Sceadungen

It is now playing up, refusing to show the solution when you go wrong, just hanging or leaping to some random position, the thing is a nightmare.