Yes, I was thinking of positions which have more pieces and are effectively dead if players don't do stupid things, but the rules (perfectly reasonably) assume players could play the worst moves.
Live Chess Doesn't Recognize Dead Positions
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Sep 29, 2020
0
#64
Sorry, but it was White who ran out of time, so the best White could get was a draw, so you should have stuck to your guns, unless FIDE would state otherwise when you might have a case.
Which raise the point as to whether Chess.com is entitled to make its own rules, at least when the "official" rule is somewhat of a joke, as if Blacks "win" is only possible with unbelievably appalling play by White.
Sep 29, 2020
0
#65
Of course I realised that you were arguing the other player's case.
I might add that I am far more often than not on the receiving end of the situation which you initially brought up. But, them's the breaks, and if I played faster I could avoid it I guess, but then I would play badly and lose that way, but be hotsie with the clock.
Sep 30, 2020
0
#66
EndgameStudier wrote:
Actually I could accidentally get mated if I was relentless at promoting my A pawn:
If I had managed to reach this position trying to win, I would have been royally screwed here!
Yes, You can get mated with a pawn left against Knight. It's an instant draw without pawn ofc.
Sep 30, 2020
0
#67
EndgameStudier wrote:
DarkKnightAttack wrote:
EndgameStudier wrote:
Actually I could accidentally get mated if I was relentless at promoting my A pawn:
If I had managed to reach this position trying to win, I would have been royally screwed here!
Yes, You can get mated with a pawn left against Knight. It's an instant draw without pawn ofc.
So if he has a knight and I have an A or H pawn I should lose if my time runs out correct? But didn't.
I think that idea is sort of what this thread is all about.
What is the official rule from whoever determines the rules?
And is Chess.com bound hand and foot by those rules?
Under FIDE rules, there is no separate thing as "insufficient material". Positions with insufficient material are subsets of "dead positions".
However, brute-force chess engines (without pattern recognition) are bad at detecting these positions, except for the positions with literally insufficient material (meaning you could teleport these pieces anywhere, regardless of legality, and the position would be drawn).
That's why I guess the rules on Chess.Com declare positions such as KN vs KB drawn - in order to compensate for not being able to claim dead positions.
IMO the best solution for dead positions without time increment is simply giving lower time consumption for premoves - now you need to have 5 seconds to premove 50 times and declare draw, or 7.5 seconds to premove 75 moves.
Is there any chess site in the world where the software would automatically declare the position in diagram #1 a draw? I don't know of any. If the position in diagram 1 occurred in a FIDE tournament, could either player simply claim a draw? I'm no tournament director, so I don't know the answer, but I doubt it
EndgameStudier wrote:
Ya sure about that? Here's an example where even a capture does not make the position winnable. Could theoretically be prolonged a multitude of 50 every time white moves a pawn 1 square, if white was the one trying to win on time.
As you mention the position is not possible with a bishop on e7. I constructed a game with a knight on e7 instead, White trying to prolong the game to the maximum, Black trying to draw. It lasted 688 moves! A FIDE record?
[Event "FIDE Record Dead Position"]
[Site "How chess.com does not recognize dead position - permitting this kind of game"]
[Date "2021.04.01"]
[White "April Fool's Day Prank"]
[Black "Imagine this in a bullet game - Enjoy!"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1.e4 e5 2.a3 Bb4 3.axb4 Ne7 4.Qh5 Nf5 5.exf5 Nc6 6.c3 Nd4 7.cxd4 Qh4 8.Nf3 Qh3
9.gxh3 Rb8 10.Nxe5 Ra8 11.Bg2 c6 12.Bxc6 Rb8 13.Bd5 Ke7 14.Nc3 Kd6 15.Ne4+ Kxd5
16.Nd6 Kxd6 17.Qg5 Kc7 18.Qxg7 Ra8 19.Qxh8 Rb8 20.h4 Ra8 21.Ke2 Rb8 22.h5 Kd6
23.Qxc8 Rxc8 24.Rxa7 Rxc1 25.Rxc1 Ke7 26.Ng6+ Ke8 27.f6 Kd8 28.Rc8+ Kxc8
29.Ra8+ Kc7 30.Rc8+ Kxc8 31.Ne7+ Kd8 32.h6 Ke8 33.b5 Kd8 34.b6 Ke8 35.d5 Kd8
36.Ke3 Ke8 37.d6 Kf8 38.Ng8 Kxg8 {Dead position: blocked pawns} 39.Kf4 Kh8
40.Kg5 Kg8 41.Kf5 Kh8 42.Ke5 Kg8 43.Kd5 Kh8 44.Kc5 Kg8 45.Kb5 Kh8 46.Ka5 Kg8
47.Ka4 Kh8 48.Kb4 Kg8 49.Kc4 Kh8 50.Kd4 Kg8 51.Ke4 Kh8 52.Kf3 Kg8 53.Kg4 Kh8
54.Kh4 Kg8 55.Kh3 Kh8 56.Kg2 Kg8 57.Kh1 Kh8 58.Kg1 Kg8 59.Kf1 Kh8 60.Ke1 Kg8
61.Kd1 Kh8 62.Kc1 Kg8 63.Kb1 Kh8 64.Ka1 Kg8 65.Ka2 Kh8 66.Ka3 Kg8 67.Kb3 Kh8
68.Kc3 Kg8 69.Kd3 Kh8 70.Ke3 Kg8 71.Kf3 Kh8 72.Kg3 Kg8 73.Kh3 Kh8 74.Kh4 Kg8
75.Kg4 Kh8 76.Kf4 Kg8 77.Ke4 Kh8 78.Kd4 Kg8 79.Kc4 Kh8 80.Kb4 Kg8 81.Ka4 Kh8
82.Ka5 Kg8 83.Kb5 Kh8 84.Kc5 Kg8 85.Kd5 Kh8 86.Ke5 Kg8 87.Kf5 Kh8 88.b3 Kg8
89.Kg5 Kh8 90.Kh5 Kg8 91.Kh4 Kh8 92.Kg4 Kg8 93.Kf4 Kh8 94.Ke5 Kg8 95.Kd5 Kh8
96.Kc5 Kg8 97.Kb5 Kh8 98.Ka5 Kg8 99.Ka4 Kh8 100.Kb4 Kg8 101.Kc4 Kh8 102.Kd4 Kg8
103.Ke4 Kh8 104.Kf4 Kg8 105.Kg4 Kh8 106.Kh4 Kg8 107.Kh3 Kh8 108.Kg3 Kg8
109.Kf3 Kh8 110.Ke3 Kg8 111.Kd3 Kh8 112.Kc3 Kg8 113.Kb2 Kh8 114.Ka2 Kg8
115.Ka1 Kh8 116.Kb1 Kg8 117.Kc2 Kh8 118.Kc1 Kg8 119.Kd1 Kh8 120.Ke1 Kg8
121.Kf1 Kh8 122.Kg1 Kg8 123.Kh1 Kh8 124.Kg2 Kg8 125.Kg3 Kh8 126.Kf3 Kg8
127.Ke3 Kh8 128.Kd3 Kg8 129.Kc3 Kh8 130.Kb4 Kg8 131.Ka4 Kh8 132.Ka5 Kg8
133.Kb5 Kh8 134.Kc5 Kg8 135.Kd5 Kh8 136.Ke5 Kg8 137.Kf5 Kh8 138.b4 Kg8
139.Kg5 Kh8 140.Kh5 Kg8 141.Kh4 Kh8 142.Kg4 Kg8 143.Kf4 Kh8 144.Ke4 Kg8
145.Kd4 Kh8 146.Kc4 Kg8 147.Kd5 Kh8 148.Kc5 Kg8 149.Kb5 Kh8 150.Ka5 Kg8
151.Ka4 Kh8 152.Ka3 Kg8 153.Kb3 Kh8 154.Kc3 Kg8 155.Kd3 Kh8 156.Ke3 Kg8
157.Kf3 Kh8 158.Kg3 Kg8 159.Kh3 Kh8 160.Kg2 Kg8 161.Kh1 Kh8 162.Kg1 Kg8
163.Kf1 Kh8 164.Ke1 Kg8 165.Kd1 Kh8 166.Kc1 Kg8 167.Kb1 Kh8 168.Ka1 Kg8
169.Ka2 Kh8 170.Kb2 Kg8 171.Kc2 Kh8 172.Kb3 Kg8 173.Kc3 Kh8 174.Kd3 Kg8
175.Ke3 Kh8 176.Kf3 Kg8 177.Kg3 Kh8 178.Kh3 Kg8 179.Kh4 Kh8 180.Kg4 Kg8
181.Kf4 Kh8 182.Ke4 Kg8 183.Kd4 Kh8 184.Kc4 Kg8 185.Kb5 Kh8 186.Kc5 Kg8
187.Kd5 Kh8 188.b5 Kg8 189.Ke5 Kh8 190.Kf5 Kg8 191.Kg5 Kh8 192.Kh5 Kg8
193.Kh4 Kh8 194.Kg4 Kg8 195.Kf4 Kh8 196.Ke4 Kg8 197.Kd4 Kh8 198.Kc5 Kg8
199.Kc4 Kh8 200.Kb4 Kg8 201.Ka5 Kh8 202.Ka4 Kg8 203.Ka3 Kh8 204.Kb3 Kg8
205.Kc3 Kh8 206.Kd3 Kg8 207.Ke3 Kh8 208.Kf3 Kg8 209.Kg3 Kh8 210.Kh3 Kg8
211.Kg2 Kh8 212.Kh1 Kg8 213.Kg1 Kh8 214.Kf1 Kg8 215.Ke1 Kh8 216.Kd1 Kg8
217.Kc1 Kh8 218.Kb1 Kg8 219.Ka1 Kh8 220.Ka2 Kg8 221.Kb2 Kh8 222.Kc2 Kg8
223.Kb3 Kh8 224.Kc3 Kg8 225.Kd3 Kh8 226.Ke3 Kg8 227.Kf3 Kh8 228.Kg3 Kg8
229.Kh3 Kh8 230.Kh4 Kg8 231.Kg4 Kh8 232.Kf4 Kg8 233.Ke4 Kh8 234.Kd4 Kg8
235.Kc4 Kh8 236.Kb4 Kg8 237.Kc5 Kh8 238.d3 Kg8 239.Kd5 Kh8 240.Ke5 Kg8
241.Kf5 Kh8 242.Kg5 Kg8 243.Kh5 Kh8 244.Kh4 Kg8 245.Kg4 Kh8 246.Kf4 Kg8
247.Ke4 Kh8 248.Kd4 Kg8 249.Kc4 Kh8 250.Kb4 Kg8 251.Ka4 Kh8 252.Ka3 Kg8
253.Kb3 Kh8 254.Kc3 Kg8 255.Kd2 Kh8 256.Ke3 Kg8 257.Kf3 Kh8 258.Kg3 Kg8
259.Kh3 Kh8 260.Kg2 Kg8 261.Kh1 Kh8 262.Kg1 Kg8 263.Kf1 Kh8 264.Ke1 Kg8
265.Kd1 Kh8 266.Kc1 Kg8 267.Kb1 Kh8 268.Ka1 Kg8 269.Ka2 Kh8 270.Kb2 Kg8
271.Kc2 Kh8 272.Kc3 Kg8 273.Kb3 Kh8 274.Ka3 Kg8 275.Ka4 Kh8 276.Kb4 Kg8
277.Kc4 Kh8 278.Kd4 Kg8 279.Ke4 Kh8 280.Kf4 Kg8 281.Kg4 Kh8 282.Kh4 Kg8
283.Kh5 Kh8 284.Kg5 Kg8 285.Kf5 Kh8 286.Ke5 Kg8 287.Kd5 Kh8 288.d4 Kg8
289.Ke5 Kh8 290.Kf5 Kg8 291.Kg5 Kh8 292.Kh5 Kg8 293.Kh4 Kh8 294.Kg4 Kg8
295.Kf4 Kh8 296.Ke4 Kg8 297.Kd3 Kh8 298.Kc4 Kg8 299.Kc5 Kh8 300.Kb4 Kg8
301.Ka5 Kh8 302.Ka4 Kg8 303.Ka3 Kh8 304.Kb3 Kg8 305.Kc3 Kh8 306.Kd3 Kg8
307.Ke2 Kh8 308.Kd2 Kg8 309.Kc2 Kh8 310.Kb2 Kg8 311.Ka2 Kh8 312.Ka1 Kg8
313.Kb1 Kh8 314.Kc1 Kg8 315.Kd1 Kh8 316.Ke1 Kg8 317.Kf1 Kh8 318.Kg1 Kg8
319.Kh1 Kh8 320.Kg2 Kg8 321.Kh3 Kh8 322.Kg3 Kg8 323.Kf3 Kh8 324.Ke3 Kg8
325.Kd3 Kh8 326.Kc3 Kg8 327.Kb3 Kh8 328.Ka3 Kg8 329.Ka4 Kh8 330.Ka5 Kg8
331.Kb4 Kh8 332.Kc4 Kg8 333.Kc5 Kh8 334.Kd5 Kg8 335.Ke5 Kh8 336.Kf5 Kg8
337.Kg5 Kh8 338.f3 Kg8 339.Kh5 Kh8 340.Kg5 Kg8 341.Kf5 Kh8 342.Ke5 Kg8
343.Kd5 Kh8 344.Kc5 Kg8 345.Kc4 Kh8 346.Kb4 Kg8 347.Ka5 Kh8 348.Ka4 Kg8
349.Ka3 Kh8 350.Kb3 Kg8 351.Kc3 Kh8 352.Kd3 Kg8 353.Ke4 Kh8 354.Kf4 Kg8
355.Kg4 Kh8 356.Kh4 Kg8 357.Kh3 Kh8 358.Kg3 Kg8 359.Kf2 Kh8 360.Ke3 Kg8
361.Ke2 Kh8 362.Kd2 Kg8 363.Kc2 Kh8 364.Kb2 Kg8 365.Ka2 Kh8 366.Ka1 Kg8
367.Kb1 Kh8 368.Kc1 Kg8 369.Kd1 Kh8 370.Ke1 Kg8 371.Kf1 Kh8 372.Kg1 Kg8
373.Kh1 Kh8 374.Kg2 Kg8 375.Kg3 Kh8 376.Kh3 Kg8 377.Kh4 Kh8 378.Kg4 Kg8
379.Kf4 Kh8 380.Ke4 Kg8 381.Kd5 Kh8 382.Ke5 Kg8 383.Kf5 Kh8 384.Kg4 Kg8
385.Kh4 Kh8 386.Kh3 Kg8 387.Kg3 Kh8 388.d5 Kg8 389.Kf2 Kh8 390.Ke3 Kg8
391.Kd3 Kh8 392.Kc4 Kg8 393.Kb4 Kh8 394.Ka4 Kg8 395.Ka3 Kh8 396.Kb3 Kg8
397.Kc3 Kh8 398.Kd4 Kg8 399.Ke4 Kh8 400.Ke5 Kg8 401.Kf5 Kh8 402.Kg5 Kg8
403.Kh5 Kh8 404.Kh4 Kg8 405.Kg4 Kh8 406.Kh3 Kg8 407.Kg3 Kh8 408.Kg2 Kg8
409.Kf2 Kh8 410.Ke2 Kg8 411.Kd2 Kh8 412.Kc2 Kg8 413.Kb2 Kh8 414.Ka2 Kg8
415.Ka1 Kh8 416.Kb1 Kg8 417.Kc1 Kh8 418.Kd1 Kg8 419.Ke1 Kh8 420.Kf1 Kg8
421.Kg1 Kh8 422.Kh1 Kg8 423.Kg2 Kh8 424.Kh3 Kg8 425.Kh4 Kh8 426.Kg4 Kg8
427.Kh5 Kh8 428.Kg5 Kg8 429.Kf5 Kh8 430.Ke5 Kg8 431.Kf4 Kh8 432.Ke4 Kg8
433.Kd4 Kh8 434.Kc5 Kg8 435.Kc4 Kh8 436.Kb4 Kg8 437.Ka5 Kh8 438.f4 Kg8
439.Ka4 Kh8 440.Kb4 Kg8 441.Kc5 Kh8 442.Kc4 Kg8 443.Kd4 Kh8 444.Ke4 Kg8
445.Ke5 Kh8 446.Kf5 Kg8 447.Kg5 Kh8 448.Kh5 Kg8 449.Kg4 Kh8 450.Kh4 Kg8
451.Kh3 Kh8 452.Kg3 Kg8 453.Kf3 Kh8 454.Ke3 Kg8 455.Kd3 Kh8 456.Kc3 Kg8
457.Kb3 Kh8 458.Ka3 Kg8 459.Ka2 Kh8 460.Kb2 Kg8 461.Kc2 Kh8 462.Kd2 Kg8
463.Ke2 Kh8 464.Kf2 Kg8 465.Kg2 Kh8 466.Kh1 Kg8 467.Kg1 Kh8 468.Kf1 Kg8
469.Ke1 Kh8 470.Kd1 Kg8 471.Kc1 Kh8 472.Kb1 Kg8 473.Ka1 Kh8 474.Ka2 Kg8
475.Kb2 Kh8 476.Kc2 Kg8 477.Kd2 Kh8 478.Ke2 Kg8 479.Kf2 Kh8 480.Kg2 Kg8
481.Kh3 Kh8 482.Kg3 Kg8 483.Kf3 Kh8 484.Ke3 Kg8 485.Kd3 Kh8 486.Kc3 Kg8
487.Kb3 Kh8 488.f5 Kg8 489.Ka4 Kh8 490.Ka5 Kg8 491.Kb4 Kh8 492.Kc5 Kg8
493.Kc4 Kh8 494.Kd4 Kg8 495.Ke5 Kh8 496.Ke4 Kg8 497.Kf4 Kh8 498.Kg5 Kg8
499.Kh5 Kh8 500.Kg4 Kg8 501.Kh4 Kh8 502.Kh3 Kg8 503.Kg3 Kh8 504.Kf3 Kg8
505.Ke3 Kh8 506.Kd3 Kg8 507.Kc3 Kh8 508.Kb3 Kg8 509.Ka3 Kh8 510.Ka2 Kg8
511.Kb2 Kh8 512.Kc2 Kg8 513.Kd2 Kh8 514.Ke2 Kg8 515.Kf2 Kh8 516.Kg2 Kg8
517.Kh1 Kh8 518.Kg1 Kg8 519.Kf1 Kh8 520.Ke1 Kg8 521.Kd1 Kh8 522.Kc1 Kg8
523.Kb1 Kh8 524.Ka1 Kg8 525.Ka2 Kh8 526.Kb2 Kg8 527.Kc2 Kh8 528.Kd2 Kg8
529.Ke2 Kh8 530.Kf2 Kg8 531.Kg2 Kh8 532.Kh3 Kg8 533.Kg3 Kh8 534.Kf3 Kg8
535.Ke3 Kh8 536.Kd3 Kg8 537.Kc3 Kh8 538.h3 Kg8 539.Kb3 Kh8 540.Ka3 Kg8
541.Ka4 Kh8 542.Ka5 Kg8 543.Kb4 Kh8 544.Kc5 Kg8 545.Kc4 Kh8 546.Kd4 Kg8
547.Ke5 Kh8 548.Ke4 Kg8 549.Kf4 Kh8 550.Kg5 Kg8 551.Kh5 Kh8 552.Kh4 Kg8
553.Kg4 Kh8 554.Kf4 Kg8 555.Ke4 Kh8 556.Ke5 Kg8 557.Kd4 Kh8 558.Kc5 Kg8
559.Kc4 Kh8 560.Kb4 Kg8 561.Ka5 Kh8 562.Ka4 Kg8 563.Ka3 Kh8 564.Kb3 Kg8
565.Kc3 Kh8 566.Kd3 Kg8 567.Ke3 Kh8 568.Kf3 Kg8 569.Kg3 Kh8 570.Kh2 Kg8
571.Kg2 Kh8 572.Kf2 Kg8 573.Ke2 Kh8 574.Kd2 Kg8 575.Kc2 Kh8 576.Kb2 Kg8
577.Ka2 Kh8 578.Ka1 Kg8 579.Kb1 Kh8 580.Kc1 Kg8 581.Kd1 Kh8 582.Ke1 Kg8
583.Kf1 Kh8 584.Kg1 Kg8 585.Kh1 Kh8 586.Kg2 Kg8 587.Kf2 Kh8 588.h4 Kg8
589.Kg2 Kh8 590.Kh2 Kg8 591.Kh1 Kh8 592.Kg1 Kg8 593.Kf1 Kh8 594.Ke1 Kg8
595.Kd1 Kh8 596.Kc1 Kg8 597.Kb1 Kh8 598.Ka1 Kg8 599.Ka2 Kh8 600.Kb2 Kg8
601.Kc2 Kh8 602.Kd2 Kg8 603.Ke2 Kh8 604.Kf2 Kg8 605.Kg3 Kh8 606.Kf3 Kg8
607.Ke3 Kh8 608.Kd3 Kg8 609.Kc3 Kh8 610.Kb3 Kg8 611.Ka3 Kh8 612.Ka4 Kg8
613.Ka5 Kh8 614.Kb4 Kg8 615.Kc5 Kh8 616.Kc4 Kg8 617.Kd4 Kh8 618.Ke5 Kg8
619.Ke4 Kh8 620.Kf4 Kg8 621.Kg5 Kh8 622.Kh5 Kg8 623.Kg4 Kh8 624.Kg3 Kg8
625.Kf3 Kh8 626.Ke3 Kg8 627.Kd3 Kh8 628.Kc3 Kg8 629.Kb3 Kh8 630.Ka3 Kg8
631.Ka2 Kh8 632.Kb2 Kg8 633.Kc2 Kh8 634.Kd2 Kg8 635.Ke2 Kh8 636.Kf1 Kg8
637.Kg2 Kh8 638.h5 Kg8 639.Kg3 Kh8 640.Kg4 Kg8 641.Kh4 Kh8 642.Kh3 Kg8
643.Kh2 Kh8 644.Kh1 Kg8 645.Kg1 Kh8 646.Kf1 Kg8 647.Kf2 Kh8 648.Kf3 Kg8
649.Kf4 Kh8 650.Ke5 Kg8 651.Ke4 Kh8 652.Ke3 Kg8 653.Ke2 Kh8 654.Ke1 Kg8
655.Kd1 Kh8 656.Kd2 Kg8 657.Kd3 Kh8 658.Kd4 Kg8 659.Kc5 Kh8 660.Kc4 Kg8
661.Kc3 Kh8 662.Kc2 Kg8 663.Kc1 Kh8 664.Kb1 Kg8 665.Kb2 Kh8 666.Kb3 Kg8
667.Kb4 Kh8 668.Ka5 Kg8 669.Ka4 Kh8 670.Ka3 Kg8 671.Ka2 Kh8 672.Ka1 Kg8
673.Kb1 Kh8 674.Kc1 Kg8 675.Kd1 Kh8 676.Ke1 Kg8 677.Kf1 Kh8 678.Kg1 Kg8
679.Kh1 Kh8 680.Kh2 Kg8 681.Kg2 Kh8 682.Kf2 Kg8 683.Ke2 Kh8 684.Kd2 Kg8
685.Kc2 Kh8 686.Kb2 Kg8 687.Ka2 Kh8 688.Ka3 {Black can claim a draw since
50 moves have passed since the last pawn move or capture with 638.h4h5
FEN=7k/1p1p1p1p/1P1P1P1P/1P1P1P1P/8/8/6K1/8 b - - 0 638} 1/2-1/2
EndgameStudier wrote:
More than once I have lost (or won), or had to basically waste time making random premoves in positions like this:
This is the most complex example I can think of where mate in not theoretically possible by any moves on each side. It is important to note that this position and others like it are DRAWN, not just "drawish". No breakthroughs exist, but yet this site does not declare them a draw and you just lose/win on time. It's ridiculous. But ironically, in positions like this:
If white runs out of time, the initial position in a win for black because of the absurd move sequence I posted is theoretically possible...
I've made a forum on that: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/this-cant-be-a-draw-58956772
Yes. But in most positions, really daft moves by the opponent help. Eg you have only a totally trapped bishop and the opponent has a piece they can use to let your bishop out by being captured by a pawn.
The FIDE rule tends to apply mainly in positions with very little material.