Does True Randomness Actually Exist?

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Avatar of Letsgooredsox

Does this have to be something actually possible in the real world?

Avatar of Elroch

The topic is real world randomness, yes.
The mathematical theory is not in serious doubt. But probability theory has the curious status as having two separate interpretations in the real world - frequentist and Bayesian. In frequentist statistics, a probability is what the fraction of outcomes converges to, for some process that can be repeated an unlimited number of times. In bayesian statistics, a probability is the quantification of belief.

The mathematical manipulation of probabilities is exactly the same, the meanings different.

Avatar of Letsgooredsox

Ok cause if it wasn't real world I would say an infinite sided die

Avatar of Elroch
Letsgooredsox wrote:

Ok cause if it wasn't real world I would say an infinite sided die

That is a very awkward example!

I'll explain why. With a countable number of outcomes the probability of a combined outcome (eg the outcome is an even-numbered face, P(Even face) is the sum of the probabilities of the individual outcomes (P(2) + P(4), +P(6) + ...)

This makes it mathematically impossible for all the faces to have the same probability. If they did and it was greater than 0, the sum would be infinite. If not, and it is 0, the sum is zero, but it has to be 1!
You can have a process with a countable number of outcomes, but the probabilities have to vary. For example if the probability of face N occurring is 2^-N (for N=1 to infinity), the probabilities add up to 1 and all is well.

Avatar of Milansid

Dont yall know of heisenburgs uncertainty principle. In quantum mechanics it states that You can not know both a particles position and momentum. Only one or the other. The more you know about a particles position suppose, the more "uncertain" its momentum will be. It is easy to know the speed an momentum of real life objects such as a car because atoms are pretty stable, but you cannot predict however when a car will decay, changing its direction of momentum and its position.

This is the inequality. Now if you know suppose an electrons exact position, x would have to be zero, so the only way for the this to hold true is if p becomes infinity, which is theoretically impossible. It works the same for the other variable. So if you cant find an objects exact momentum or exact position, then its existence is literally random. You cannot predict a particles exact nature or how it will act without knowing its speed or position so this makes subatomic particles RANDOM. The stern gerlauch experiment is a TRUE random binary generator as the electrons exist in a super position of up spin or down spin so there is no true way to know what spin the electron has until it reaches the magnet. This actually ties in with another principle which is called the quantum complementarity principle. I wont go too deep with that. The surprising thing about this experiment is that this principle makes it so that you can only know the spin of the electron in ONE axis at a time, meaning if you sort electrons up spin and down spin, and take all the up spin electrons, then sort with left and right spin, then take right spin electrons, then sort those again for up and down spin, you would expect they would all have up spin because you already sorted them so that they all have up spin, however because you can only know its spin of one axis at a time, the universe completely erases the information of its up and down spin and makes it split 50/50. This shows that the electrons spin is truly RANDOM when you run it to the experiment and the universe only calculates what spin it has at the EXACT moment of its decision to go up or down. I know the spin thing is confusing but because fermions have half integer spins, there is no way for you to visualize the spin in your head, just try to grasp the concept. Thats why there is no such thing as destiny or some book that knows what will happen in the future because that would require infinite energy to know the position and momentum of particles and you literally cannot know all 3 axis spins of fermions. So to summarize, the stern gerlauch experiment is true randomness. I also want to say that the entire universe is built on the idea of RANDOMNESS. Its within its nature itself. Just look at the chaos theory.

Avatar of ayaanistufff
6967 hahaa
Avatar of Milansid

and heisengburgs uncertainty principle falsifies all determenism in a materialistic sense. conceptually 1+1 is always true, regardless of any laws of physics in any multiverse.

Avatar of Milansid

I think that the universe has fundemental laws, such as the laws of physics, however its just impossible to exactly know the parameters of the laws. For example you know that hitting an electron with a photon will move it but you cant know exactly where the photon and the electron are before hitting and after hitting. Another example is suppose there is a function f(x)=2x. We know what the function f(x) does, but we just cant know what x is or what the output is. So id say the only true determinism is just logic and math. Everything else is just random luck.

Avatar of playerafar

@Milansid
I've been reading through your posts.
And of course - the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is very important.
And important for physics students to know about very early on in their studies.
But with a qualification. The idea of limitation and what cannot be known.
Because it puts a control on anthropocentrism and on hubris. Conceit of humanity.
-----------------------
'the universe calculates' from one of your posts. Interesting.
Idea: there's logic in the universe. The evidence suggests that.
For examle something doesn't come from nothing. Not in the physical world.
But 'laws' was and is and continues to be an unfortunate 'borrowed term' in science.
And the idea that the universe 'obeys'.
And that science 'defines'.
Science tries to describe. Using math as a tool.
But Heisenberg and Godel demonstrated limitations on both physics and on math, respectively.
So it would seem that their work - and progress built on their work should put a control on hubris. And lead to more objectivity instead of less.
But it doesn't always work that way.

Avatar of ayaanistufff
#6969 🤓🤓🤓
Avatar of ayaanistufff
genuinely why are we debating this on a otf forum?
Avatar of shru

This seems like a very interesting topic, and I’d say no.

Avatar of RonaldJosephCote

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/scientist-says-nothing-universe-truly-191411442.html

Avatar of Milansid

Its literally a theory, no proof.

Avatar of KaenoxXR

There is no true randomness, only unreadable order.

Avatar of noodles2112

eternity ...."sunlight mingled with the sea" - some poet !

Avatar of KaenoxXR

Poetry describes the feeling of truth. I was referring to its structure. They are not always the same thing

Avatar of long_quach
noodles2112 wrote:

eternity ...."sunlight mingled with the sea" - some poet !

To see a world in a grain of sand

and heaven in a wild flower

hold infinity in the palm of your hand

an eternity in a hour.

- some other poet.

Avatar of long_quach

I didn't know we were doing poetry.

Avatar of noodles2112

is eternity random ?