Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Avatar of Prometheus_Fuschs
DifferentialGalois escribió:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

the big bang points toward random state, right ? im wholeheartedly not convinced of the BB so dont look to me. 

but for weirdodd sake, lets say it did. wuz there gravity prior to the BB ?....iows, are known S-T Continuum forces independent of the BB ? wuz this entity ball (Hawkings proposed a pinhead size - a megahowler !!) suspended w/out forces ? did one of the (4) forces ignite the kaboom ? they say theres a all-things 5th F too....if s/o wansta go there.

 

In regards to the fifth fundamental force:

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/scientists-may-have-discovered-a-fifth-fundamental-force-of-nature-theyre-calling-it-x17-7710261.html

My elucidations are poor, and as a consequence, I cannot be bothered to type anything. Some eccentric phenomenon is inhibiting me from doing so, it's so wildly eccentric that I fear that there are five conic sections. 

In fairness, the line, point and empty set are "degenerate" cases of conic sections.

Avatar of Elroch
DifferentialGalois wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

the big bang points toward random state, right ? im wholeheartedly not convinced of the BB so dont look to me. 

but for weirdodd sake, lets say it did. wuz there gravity prior to the BB ?....iows, are known S-T Continuum forces independent of the BB ? wuz this entity ball (Hawkings proposed a pinhead size - a megahowler !!) suspended w/out forces ? did one of the (4) forces ignite the kaboom ? they say theres a all-things 5th F too....if s/o wansta go there.

 

In regards to the fifth fundamental force:

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/scientists-may-have-discovered-a-fifth-fundamental-force-of-nature-theyre-calling-it-x17-7710261.html

My elucidations are poor, and as a consequence, I cannot be bothered to type anything. Some eccentric phenomenon is inhibiting me from doing so, it's so wildly eccentric that I fear that there are five conic sections. 

Very interesting link. I hope they have something.

Avatar of IJELLYBEANS
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
DifferentialGalois escribió:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

the big bang points toward random state, right ? im wholeheartedly not convinced of the BB so dont look to me. 

but for weirdodd sake, lets say it did. wuz there gravity prior to the BB ?....iows, are known S-T Continuum forces independent of the BB ? wuz this entity ball (Hawkings proposed a pinhead size - a megahowler !!) suspended w/out forces ? did one of the (4) forces ignite the kaboom ? they say theres a all-things 5th F too....if s/o wansta go there.

 

In regards to the fifth fundamental force:

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/scientists-may-have-discovered-a-fifth-fundamental-force-of-nature-theyre-calling-it-x17-7710261.html

My elucidations are poor, and as a consequence, I cannot be bothered to type anything. Some eccentric phenomenon is inhibiting me from doing so, it's so wildly eccentric that I fear that there are five conic sections. 

In fairness, the line, point and empty set are "degenerate" cases of conic sections.

 

When a plane intersects the vertex of the cone, the holy grail of the cone, you know that all hope is lost, as everything is instantly converted by down converters into degenerate conic sections. The moral of the story: Don't implement down converters in aeroplanes, the results could be lethal.

 

 

Avatar of IJELLYBEANS
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
DifferentialGalois escribió:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

the big bang points toward random state, right ? im wholeheartedly not convinced of the BB so dont look to me. 

but for weirdodd sake, lets say it did. wuz there gravity prior to the BB ?....iows, are known S-T Continuum forces independent of the BB ? wuz this entity ball (Hawkings proposed a pinhead size - a megahowler !!) suspended w/out forces ? did one of the (4) forces ignite the kaboom ? they say theres a all-things 5th F too....if s/o wansta go there.

 

In regards to the fifth fundamental force:

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/scientists-may-have-discovered-a-fifth-fundamental-force-of-nature-theyre-calling-it-x17-7710261.html

My elucidations are poor, and as a consequence, I cannot be bothered to type anything. Some eccentric phenomenon is inhibiting me from doing so, it's so wildly eccentric that I fear that there are five conic sections. 

In fairness, the line, point and empty set are "degenerate" cases of conic sections.

 

It's becoming so wildly eccentric that I fear there exist four degenerate conic sections. Never mind, that's merely the topologist ranting on about the fourth elusive Klein bottle.

Avatar of Elroch

Eccentricity is essential for dealing with ellipses.

Avatar of Prometheus_Fuschs
DifferentialGalois escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
DifferentialGalois escribió:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

the big bang points toward random state, right ? im wholeheartedly not convinced of the BB so dont look to me. 

but for weirdodd sake, lets say it did. wuz there gravity prior to the BB ?....iows, are known S-T Continuum forces independent of the BB ? wuz this entity ball (Hawkings proposed a pinhead size - a megahowler !!) suspended w/out forces ? did one of the (4) forces ignite the kaboom ? they say theres a all-things 5th F too....if s/o wansta go there.

 

In regards to the fifth fundamental force:

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/scientists-may-have-discovered-a-fifth-fundamental-force-of-nature-theyre-calling-it-x17-7710261.html

My elucidations are poor, and as a consequence, I cannot be bothered to type anything. Some eccentric phenomenon is inhibiting me from doing so, it's so wildly eccentric that I fear that there are five conic sections. 

In fairness, the line, point and empty set are "degenerate" cases of conic sections.

 

It's becoming so wildly eccentric that I fear there exist four degenerate conic sections. Never mind, that's merely the topologist ranting on about the fourth elusive Klein bottle.

Now that I recall, two lines (both intersecting and parallel) are also "degenerate" cases.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_conic

Avatar of IJELLYBEANS

Einstein, for as much as I can determine, was a pair of straight lines or any degenerate case, with his eccentricity exceeding the 1 needed for the standard conic section. Consequently, he did not consume much food, explaining why he was not plump. However, the objectively bland degenerate conic sections hint out how he may have been overly set theory oriented or a convergent thinker. That being said, he mastered calculus at the age of 15, which requires determining if a series converges or diverges, and we can speculate this is where his thought process began to shape. As for his general relativity, it is marvellous with an eccentricity of approximately 10 to the power of negative 23, and that is why differential geometry is less eccentric than Einstein, who didn't care to wear socks. He'll surely knock your socks off with his vast imagination and his tendency to utter such impeccable quotes whereupon people have been mesmerised to the point that they realise they are actually infinitely good relative to Einstein. This demonstrates the inconceivable power of mankind, and how man can employ these Einstein regimes in order to overpower nature. Deep down, inside of us, we know that Einstein revolutionised botany.

Avatar of IJELLYBEANS
Elroch wrote:

Eccentricity is essential for dealing with ellipses.

 

Ellipses are essential for dealing with Kepler.

Some eccentricity is essential for manifesting something the Kepler way.

Astronomy will not err.

Avatar of Sillver1
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

okay. so lemme get this correct.

they say the 'contents' prior to the BB wuz wut now ??....and then after this so-called BB all forces, known and unknown, got created ?....do i have that right ?

something else. any guesses as to why the BB kaboomed ?....and the pre-BB 'contents' concoction came from where ??

if you really want to get it correct, i'd say that we are clueless for what was 'before'. as for guesses, id say that according to law of conservation, its possible that the contents were just the same as they are now, but in an unfamiliar state.. by state i mean like liquid, gas, plasma, and prebbie? (as in pre BB :?)
regards to when the forces came to be? Im not sure myself and dont want to misguide you. id think that this should has a simple answer as part of the BB theory. the reason for me to guess that they came to be later is because they are a direct consequence of particles and their structure., like nuclei, and so it just make sense to me that they came to be sometime along with particles and nuclei formation. (gravity may be different)
anyways... take this with a spoon of salt. and maybe someone else can chime in on this one... hint, hint to all the smarties in the room : )
as for 'came from where' the best answer i have is that it always been there in one form or another, this is obviously not a satisfying answer but it is what it is.

as for entropy.. yes, it always work in one direction, but that is toward equilibrium, not randomness... the thing with entropy is that it used in so many different contexts and its important to always analyze it within the particular context...
for example in the context of your place.. the arrow of entropy always work toward disintegrating your house over time. you on the other hand, decrease entropy by maintenance. (roofing, painting, plumbing, etc) and yes, I believe that you do it by choice and that you are making a real difference to the uni by doing so.

Avatar of Sillver1

First Friday of 2020... enjoy ; )

post_3738483.jpeg

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

okay. so lets single out the physics entropy one. the literal one here. 

so. im gonna flip a coin. now. heads i will go to the store and increase the U's entropy (azza heat byproduct). tails i stay on the sofa. iow's, I didnt decide a/t. I've left the arrow of entropy up to a random coin toss.

okay. s/o explain to me how that wuz deterministic again ? doesnt seem like it. does it ? 

physics definition of Entropy....

a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.

Avatar of Sillver1

First off, im into objectivity and not determinism. which means that i entertain all reasonable ideas. even those that i dislike. (like determinism, or even superdeterminism)
now for your azza going shopping example.. I think that all you really questioning here is FW again, so lets stick to that and leave D and entropy out of it for sake of clarity.
but what you really questioning is your choice between 3 possibilities, right?
1. go to the store
2. stay on the couch.
3. allow a coin flip to decide for you.

so if you believe in FW and the ability to make real choices, you'd say that your choice was #3. its that simple. FW doesn't mean that you have full control on the outcome of your choices, just that your choices are real.

now if you dont believe in FW. (what you called deterministic). they would say that even that you apparently chose #3, it wasn't really a free decision at all (just illusion or whatever) and it was already predetermined by your previous decision, your genetics, the matter that you made of or whatever.. ask elroch.. he knows more about it because he actually believe in it.

as for your definition of entropy.. you're absolutely right. but often when referring to entropy as randomness, it is in the context of calculating probabilities. i think that here it was in the context of arrow of time, derive from the 2'nd law. and imo,  better keep it simple and talk about equilibrium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

i thought he wuz a big bang (azzee vigorously defends the 'notion') pantheist (self-proclaimed) ?....and now deterministic too (the BB planned itself) ?

...ohh.

 

Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

First off, im into objectivity and not determinism. which means that i entertain all reasonable ideas. even those that i dislike. (like determinism, or even superdeterminism)
now for your azza going shopping example.. I think that all you really questioning here is FW again, so lets stick to that and leave D and entropy out of it for sake of clarity.
but what you really questioning is your choice between 3 possibilities, right?
1. go to the store
2. stay on the couch.
3. allow a coin flip to decide for you.

so if you believe in FW and the ability to make real choices, you'd say that your choice was #3. its that simple. FW doesn't mean that you have full control on the outcome of your choices, just that your choices are real.

now if you dont believe in FW. (what you called deterministic). they would say that even that you apparently chose #3, it wasn't really a free decision at all (just illusion or whatever) and it was already predetermined by your previous decision, your genetics, the matter that you made of or whatever.. ask elroch.. he knows more about it because he actually believe in it.

I believe in free will as an entirely unpredictable component of human behaviour. Admittedly, pretty much everything else also has such unpredictability.

as for your definition of entropy.. you're absolutely right. but often when referring to entropy as randomness, it is in the context of calculating probabilities. i think that here it was in the context of arrow of time, derive from the 2'nd law. and imo,  better keep it simple and talk about equilibrium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

 

Avatar of Optimissed
Sillver1 wrote:

First off, im into objectivity and not determinism. which means that i entertain all reasonable ideas. even those that i dislike. (like determinism, or even superdeterminism)
now for your azza going shopping example.. I think that all you really questioning here is FW again, so lets stick to that and leave D and entropy out of it for sake of clarity.>>

Objectivity is nothing more than a subjective determination towards accuracy and towards a consideration of all factors and variables. It's an attempt towards inclusiveness and accuracy rather than something magical.

Avatar of Optimissed
Sillver1 wrote:

Opti: "it would not be to the taste of those who believe in the possibility of "many worlds" (each maybe even with their own laws)"

 

Multi-verse or Many-worlds? mw is boring, but i think that you meant to say multi-verse? and multiverse? ahh.. that gets my molecules excited : ) and may i say that is just as real as our own existence? i never even heard anyone in their right mind dispute multiverse. not even the most conservative scientists.>>>>

Many worlds, multiverse, whatever .... it isn't meaningful. It isn't evidence based, so it isn't science-based. Since both ideas are meaningless in a scientific context, who's to say there's a difference. It's all just fantasy. Sometimes, physics theoreticians may "support" such ideas because they're having fun. Buzz-words. Escapism. And maybe sometimes they don't know the difference between science and speculative hypotheses.

Avatar of Elroch

The fundamental notion of entropy is the information theoretic one. This is about counting microstates. Macrostates are large scale states that are indistinguishable - for example, any volume of gas at a specified temperature and pressure. Macrostates are made up of many (generally unobservable) microstates which describe every detail of the constituents (molecules with locations and positions). In quantum theory, even the state of a single molecule is always a superposition of microstates, since it is absolutely impossible to specify position and momentum simultaneously.

The grand truth of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is that the state is more likely to go to a macrostate with more microstates!  (The statistics mean that if you consider all the microstates that describe a volume of gas, almost all of these look like a uniform temperature and pressure. Odd anomalies - like having a small region with lower temperature or pressure - have far fewer microstates.

This is quite unintuitive, but a simple analogy is the states of a very long sequence of N coin tosses. Define a macrostate by the number of heads. All possible numbers of heads from 0 to N are possible, but because N is large, it is almost certain the number will be very close to N/2. This can be quantified to give how probable a certain neighbourhood of N/2 is. A state with almost exactly half heads is well viewed as a maximum entropy state.

With gases instead of heads and tails, what you have are the states of all of the individual molecules, and the maximum entropy state is where they have a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution.

All of the physics associated with entropy comes down to this notion of counting states and tending to get into a macrostate which consists of almost all of the microstates.

Perhaps the main intuitive barrier is to accept that even though there are a vast number of microstates of a system and these vary enormously,typically almost all of them look very similar. The analogy of the coins gives a helpful hint as to how this can be so.

An extreme physical example is that an extremely high entropy state is a black hole, and black holes are very bland, being almost featureless and requiring only a few numbers to describe them. Another extremely high entropy state is black body radiation (like the CMB), and Hawking identified the way in which these two relate to each other.

Avatar of KingAxelson

Apparently hunch’s are not random after all..

Where “Hunches” Come from.

When ideas or concepts flash into one’s mind, through what is popularly called a “hunch,” they come from one or more of the following sources:-

1. Infinite Intelligence.

2. One’s subconscious mind, wherein is stored  every sense impression and thought impulse which ever reached the brain through any of the five senses.

3. From the mind of some other person who has just released the thought, or picture of the idea or concept, through conscience thought.

4. From the other person’s subconscious storehouse.

There are no other known sources from which “inspired” ideas or “hunches” may be received.

When brain action has been stimulated, through one or more of the ten mind stimulants, it has the effect of lifting the individual far above the horizon of ordinary thought, and permits him to envision distance, scope, and quality of thoughts not available on the lower plane, such as that occupied while one is engaged in the solution of the problems of business and professional routine.

Much more is said on this.. 

Avatar of dbel19
@Uke8 I know I’m late, but the dice is not guaranteed to land on one side 2m times. That is merely a probability not a guarantee meaning that randomness in that case does exist. Maybe by some roll of the dice you only land on the number one 100 times but you roll a six 3 million times. Merely probabilities not guarantees.
Avatar of 2bz

ur wasting yer time tick-tock, we have a surprise for ya : )