Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

lol. elroch, maybe you want to mellow down with the red penning in these parts.. i mean.. obviously Opti can get under anyone skin with his mixture of conspiracy and polarity. and he admittedly said so himself.
but red penning is globally recognized as an error marking by authorities. and no one like authorities here. especially not a self proclaimed authority.
I use blue as often as red. It doesn't really have much connection with the content, given that the purpose is to distinguish text from different people. I really don't think my statements are viewed as more authoritative if they are in red. It happens that in that case they are more correct!

 

Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
KingAxelson wrote:

Well, I still can’t get to that Depak Chopra I wanted to share. Something a physicist could appreciate I’m sure. I want others to analyze the statement, it goes pretty deep.

Now, back to this universe theme.. Do we really need to be there physically, to confirm what’s actually out there? One would think, and since none of ‘us’ have been, speculation is valid. Human beings will always want the hard proof, it’s in their nature.

Unless your into ‘remote viewing’ and can share something different with us?

Ive got two random speculations about the universe. 1) As vast as it is, space itself eventually runs out of ‘space.’ So what is on the other side of that, that it is pushing up against? 2) Has it been conclusively proven yet as to what is on the other side of the ‘black holes?’ Inquisitive minds..>>

One idea is that space itself is an entity and is the fabric of the universe. It has also been called space-time. Outside the universe is nothing. There is no outside since whenever we get there or even see it, something is there so it isn't outside the universe.

I have fairly recently become very enthusiastic about the idea that space-time is an emergent phenomenon from an underlying quantum mechanical reality independent of it. The 4-dimensional manifold arises from the entanglement of different states.

As yet, this idea is fairly new and still being developed, but a fascinating fact is that in a sort of simplified physics model, the laws of general relativity has been shown to arise in this way.

I am inclined to bet this idea really is the truth.

Good article on the research:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/

Regarding the black hole, I once read an excellent paper on the subject. I think the authors were from Cambridge University. I'm not a mathematician by any means but it wasn't mathematically top-heavy. They described each stage of compression right up to the ultimate that could be imagined due to gravitational force. I think it ended with plasma at extraordinarily high pressures. It was many years ago since I read it and the internet is not what it was, as you've found out. Many things can no longer be found.

After that it's just speculation. According to Reginald Kapp, for instance, the centre of a black hole would be the focus of material dematerialising. The material would simply cease to exist, rather than going anywhere. It would not do so at a rate incompatible with the continued existence of the black hole, which is drawing in material due to its gravitational field. At least, I think so. It would be self-rectifying. Kapp speculated that all matter and space has a half-life, which would explain gravity perfectly.

Black holes are so extreme, they may have led to errors of intuition in the past. The classical treatment starts with a fully formed black hole with an event horizon and a singularity. No mass is needed except that which has ended up at the singularity. But to anyone outside a black hole, this description is always in the infinite future! The gravitational time dilation slows the apparent formation of the black hole to zero, so it always seems to be just on the verge of forming a black hole.

I believe that what happens from the point of view of a hypothetical observer with extreme longevity, that a black hole stays in this state of appearing to be almost formed until eventually it evaporates in the way deduced by Hawking et al. This may mean there really is nothing beyond the event horizon because the event horizon is a mere abstraction that would take forever to form.

Another reason to doubt a classical viewpoint is that if any energy or matter falls into a classical black hole, it has acquired infinite energy by the time it reaches the event horizon. That is because the escape speed at this point is the speed of light, so by symmetry a mass falling in (unimpeded) would reach the speed of light. This is an extreme that makes reasoning using the physics we know unreliable: it does not work at infinite energies, only up to where the LHC can reach

[Oh, and as for those errors of intuition, I don't claim I am immune from them in the above wink.png ]

 

Avatar of KingAxelson

@ Silver.. Let’s try this a second time, I just lost a whole lot of text. Interesting video, I watched the first half. They say that space is the final frontier, I think the brain is.

It is also said that we only use about twenty percent of our brain power. And if we used a hundred percent, what then? Would the world be any different? Some imbalances would correct, others would deepen I think.

As to the gut feeling, I’m ok with it flying in the face of common sense at times, some aren’t. I do consider it a close relative to intuition. Perhaps there one and the same, they just fluctuate. Either way, they both let you ‘see’ in the dark.

Avatar of Elroch
KingAxelson wrote:

@ Silver.. Let’s try this a second time, I just lost a whole lot of text. Interesting video, I watched the first half. They say that space is the final frontier, I think the brain is.

In terms of something we can actually get to, the brain may be the most challenging to understand. But space has the advantage of being really big and requiring forever to explore it!

It is also said that we only use about twenty percent of our brain power.

Not in a useful sense. It's like saying we use 20% of our muscle power on the grounds that we don't use all the muscles at full power simultaneously. In truth all the brain gets used, and many activities use large numbers of parts of it in co-ordination. It is the specialisation of the parts of the brain that causes us not to use all of it all the time.

And if we used a hundred percent, what then? Would the world be any different? Some imbalances would correct, others would deepen I think.

As to the gut feeling, I’m ok with it flying in the face of common sense at times, some aren’t. I do consider it a close relative to intuition. Perhaps there one and the same, they just fluctuate. Either way, they both let you ‘see’ in the dark.

 

 

Avatar of Sillver1

King, I tend to agree with you because studies of space are limited to a distance, its just too far. and in my thought experiments, the observable is just a tiny part of a much larger reality.
the brain on the other hand is right here. so we should be able to explore it much more than we had so far, but lots of resources are going toward it so at least we’re on the right track.
As for the 20% brain use. It simply a myth that was popularized by the media and some scientists. I used to believe in it too, but was corrected recently (by a kid!)
here's a chat with elon musk again, i know.. this start to look like an elon fan club, lol. anyways.. he touch a lot of this discussion here..

from our human bandwidth limitation, cortex vs limbic system, and even the idea of uploading our consciousness (soul?) to a new body.. a machine ; )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5pgAM26wuM

As for gut feeling and intuition..
last year we went for a walk along a rocky beach. At some point my friend started to complain that she has a horrible gut feeling... and pointed out different clues.. like a hat floating in the water, a backpack laying on the rocks, and she become extremely alert..
me on the other hand, knowing that fishermen often hang there at night, and regularly leave trash and belonging behind.. dismissed it as nonsense, and said it must be the creepy fog or something..
in respond she did what she always does when i get this way.. (roll her eyes and change the subject) lol
anyways.. some 30 min later, as we were climbing back to the road, to my surprise we run into 3 police officers heading toward us.. when i asked what happen, They said that a ‘body with a shot wound’ was found there last night.

needles to say that since then, whenever she has an intuition.. whatever it is , i sharp my ears and listen.

I like this digger train gif, what is it? do you get to drive along the coast or is it always inland?

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

[Oh, and as for those errors of intuition, I don't claim I am immune from them in the above wink.png ]

u didnt hafta say that.

Avatar of catinhat42
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Avatar of catinhat42
It does I think
Avatar of DavidNorman435
But does it???
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See this
Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

 

<<With respect to this forum, note that most multiverse theories, including the "many worlds interpretation", remove randomness from the fundamental laws of nature.>>

They are an artificial device intended to do just that. I'm not sure it even works though. If every possible permutation of everything exists as a discrete universe amongst a literal infinity of universes, which is a completely preposterous and ridiculous idea in any case,

It really is not. It is in a sense the simplest hypothesis. Also it is not quite as you say. It really applies to when interactions take place with uncertain outcomes.

it would still be up for grabs where we are in all of that. But no-one in their right mind invents an infinity of universes to make their equations appear to fit. Such people aren't scientists. "Clever fools" is what they are. Yes, so in another universe you're wearing a bowler hat and you agree with me.

You are talking about people who generally not only have excellent qualifications up to PhD and have had successful research careers but are highly respected by their peers. I disagree that your opinion is more substantial.

No no no, I'm not claiming that my opinion is more substantial in the sense that people will agree with me. After all, to a large degree, physicists, as in every other discipline, do best by closing ranks, which perpetuates a sort of closed shop wherein only they are capable of thinking properly.

All I'm suggesting is that this is indeed what's happening, and obviously you're perpetuating it. It's just the same in any world .... in the world of chess when someone has a good idea and three people, one of whom is a titled player, rubbish that idea .... but if someone with a higher title said the same thing, they'd kow-tow like mad.

I do think I'm right and that I'm thinking better than those who don't understand the principles of ideational prioritisation that I'm trying to use.<<The randomness that we perceive is because we only see one branch of the multiverse and which branch we see is itself random.>>

Actually, that's not correct. At least, it's incoherent with what is implied by the idea. Within such a multiverse, containing an infinity of universes, there's an infinity of universes where I exist and I wear a sombrero on Sundays and Thursdays only and on those days you agree with me and on every other day you don't.

No, you seem confused. You (to use your absurd example) are _not_ wearing a bowler hat. That is a fact about the Universe you are in whether it is the only reality or whether it is a branch of the multiverse.

Sorry but you don't seem to get it. I'm not confused but you aren't following and you shouldn't make accusations of absurdity when it should be obvious that I'm pointing out that it's absurd to postulate a multiverse just to make mathematical equations fit. It's very silly, since, if you had been following what I was saying previously, the concrete fact (rather than the idea) of the multiverse is logically undemonstrable. It would be impossible to get evidence for it that could not be simply a misinterpretation. So what you're supporting isn't actually science. Science rests on empiricism.

Avatar of KingAxelson

@ Elroch.. I can appreciate your stance on space being much more interesting. Your talking to an old Star Trek fan here with an avid imagination. 

However, I stand by what I say. The brain and it’s true potential needs to be fully understood. Society as a whole is missing out on who knows what? Because it’s not..

I’ve heard it said somewhere, that memory capacity alone is exponential. And what about telepathy, not  sexy enough for you? How about it being said that it holds, or has access to all memories? And then, everybody can be a genius, it was explained in the Napoleon Hill book. etc as I digress.

Anyway, without fully understanding the brain, something will always be missing. I have a lot to say about this, but it’s time for a glass of wine. : )

Avatar of KingAxelson

@ Silver.. You touch on some interesting things. Let’s start with your female friend. When a woman reflects intuition in any sense, always pay attention. She is being given information, and often relates it in a weakened state I’ve noticed. Of course the males have access to esp as well, save that one for a later date.

I saw that Joe Rogan interview in its entirety by the way. It’s about forty five minutes long. And Silver, don’t ever worry about posting too much Elon Musk. Ever since I was young I wanted to be someone just like him. Or hang with friends like that.

And I think it started with my first microscope. I put some kind of centipede on the glass, and cranked that bad boy up to like the seven hundred and fifty power. What I saw blew me away, and got me hooked at the same time.

Now, exactly around that same time, my mothers best friend died of cancer. Right then and there I told her I was going to find a cure for it. (She’s only called me on it once over all these years. But the cut runs deep.)

So yes, I’m fascinated by scientists and science. But I also believe in the ‘leap frog theory.’ So now the conversation is about transferring our consciousness to A.I. It pays to stay up on things, but somewhere sometime you just have to make your stand.

There is also that TransHumanism thing going on. Which can quickly get out of control. Let’s say someone wants to throw in a wolf gene or two just for the hell of it? What then, where does it stop? If we’re not all careful, human beings are going to look and behave differently than what we’re all use to experiencing. In fact, it’s probably already too late. Freedom overkill?

I will get to your other comments a little later. Right now I need a splash. : )

Avatar of Elroch

It is safe to say that no-one will ever completely understand even a single brain. There is just too much going on with 86 billion neurons and 10^14 to 10^15 connections (estimates remain uncertain).

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

no-one will ever completely understand even a single brain.

ur sooo right....thank you !

now. u can quit w/ ur long-repeated criticism and condescension of others. howzat sound ?

Avatar of Sillver1

She would probably agree with you king. and I have no problem to buy into that too, but i have a simpler and more favorable explanation. that is that she pick up a lot of details and then process them subconsciously to indicate that something is wrong. (or good)
For example she also noticed that the back pack was from an expensive brand, and was brand new. unlikely to be left behind. Same thing with the hat, it shouldn't be floating in a low tide water, it should've been found on the high tide surf line. and other indications that doesn't matter now.
we can call it intuition, 5’th sense, or just a very tuned subconscious, but some people are obviously better than others in this. personally i do take her intuition (and some others) into account. for example, from time to time we work with the same people. and if we meet someone new and she say... 'don't trust him' or 'hes good for it'. i give her intuition a lot of weight.

As for uploading consciousness, i heard some strong argument against it, coming from a neurosurgeon, but he was talking mainly about the dependents of the brain on the body, and how ridiculous is the idea to separate them.
but elon talks about something entirely different. that is to upload all your data, to a new processor, and leave the body behind, brain included. obviously that wont happen anytime soon, his next goal is just to build an interface with an Ai. crazy stuff. but they sure working on it as you already know.

my personal take is that its mostly depend on consciousness itself. if it turn to be just a 'product' resulting from matter in our brain, then its almost certainly possible. if consciousness has something more to it? than im clueless : )   ..just like everyone else.

elroch, the only thing safe to say is that your statement (et al ; ) has nothing to do with science and stem from a non visionary prespective. maybe if you adopt the belief in FW your horizon will broaden with it : )

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:
Sillver1 wrote:

lol. elroch, maybe you want to mellow down with the red penning in these parts.. i mean.. obviously Opti can get under anyone skin with his mixture of conspiracy and polarity. and he admittedly said so himself.
but red penning is globally recognized as an error marking by authorities. and no one like authorities here. especially not a self proclaimed authority.
I use blue as often as red. It doesn't really have much connection with the content, given that the purpose is to distinguish text from different people. I really don't think my statements are viewed as more authoritative if they are in red. It happens that in that case they are more correct!

 

They are just more strident in red and your very strong opinion, which you tried to present as fact, was just that. Strident, that is. Sure, a fraction of physicists like the many worlds hypothesis (not theory) but again, the size of the fraction is a subjective comparison. It may be that it's growing, but that isn't necessarily because the physicists who accept it agree with and fully understand the theory. They just think it's "neat".

If there is an infinity of universes that form a permutative matrix of all possibilities the universe ever had and will have, is that the "many worlds idea"? After all, it's the only one where randomness is ironed out into simply a mathematical presentation of all possibilities simultaneously.

However, if such an idea is supposed to be literal then it isn't science because it can't ever be demonstrated. It only vaguely becomes "scientific" if we're really talking about an analogy because we can't intellectually cope with the reality, for example, maybe if each "universe" is merely a potential for existence and never really exists. Then, it could be interpreted as an interpretation of statistical theory. However, if it's an analogy then, so far as I know, no-one has clearly explained the analogy or even what it's supposed to represent. If they had then conservative quantum physicists like my son would probably be talking to me about it and explaining it, but so far as I know, only one of the people with whom he shared the physics PhD experience at St Andrews believes in Many Worlds and the others do not. All in all, I'm sticking with the idea that Many Worlds is an attempt by physicists to get other people to give up trying to discuss physics with them and that's a losing strategy.

In the example I gave, of an infinity of universes, that infinity of universes contains a smaller infinity where you exist and I don't, ditto where I exist and you don't. and all of these are just a speck compared with the infinity of universes where mankind doesn't exist. Logically, there's a smaller infinity (because we're increasing the amount of givens) where we both exist and, since I'm perfectly capable of wearing a sombrero, which isn't something that goes against science and therefore couldn't happen, there therefore will be a much smaller infinity of universes where I wear one on two given days of the week only,

The rest of what I wrote was a spoof but it's certainly legitimate in maths to compare sizes of infinities, since this is a notional idea and can't be shown to relate to any reality but it CAN potentially be used in equations, for instance. The entirely was intended to illustrate my belief that Many Worlds itself is absurd. However, that demonstration rests on the interpretation of many worlds that I have given being relevant, reasonable or correct. If it's wrong, it's up to you to tell us why it's wrong and to cite the "correct many worlds hypothesis". Just saying something is wrong or absurd doesn't cut any ice unless you demonstrate why.

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

There's nothing spoofy w/ math. Like Bob Ross kinda said....there's no mistakes w/ math....just happy accidents. and u get'ta make up  a.n.y.t.h.i.n.g  y.o.u  w.a.n.t  with it.

Avatar of Optimissed

haha right on

Avatar of Optimissed

I have a rather loose theory about why maths produces lots of ideas which nearly convince and nearly fit but don't quite. But maybe it's a bit subtle for here. I'd be wasting my breath/typing skin.