If you have ever raised guinea pigs and maintained a purebred collection of at last 50 individuals, and you have done this for 15 years, you would expect to know something about guinea pig behavior. Male guinea pigs are called boars. If you have 2 boars that hate each other, then you have to keep them in separate habitats. Imagine one day that you have to put one boar in a play pen to clean his cage. Then, you have to clean the other boar's cage. So you put a divider in the play pen because you realize that you left the wood shavings in your car. You hurry up because you know that boars will be facing off on each side of the divider.
BUT when you come back into the house, both boars are laying next to the divider, touching their noses through the bars and acting like best friends. So, you think... well, now they can live together. So you remove the divider and they immediately take a fighting stance.
Now, 2 months later, one of the cages needs repair. So, you put the boar into a permanent habitat in another room. While you are cleaning the other boar's cage, you realize that the door won't latch. It will take awhile to fix and you have no place to put the boar. So, you put him in the habitat with his enemy and as you slide in the divider, the other boar dives under it. Expecting the worst, you recoil in horror. A guinea pig bite is deep and destructive. But noooo!!! The two boars behave like they have been best friends forever. So, you shake your head as you walk away, tearing your hair out.
THAT, my friends, is the DEFINITION OF RANDOMNESS.
Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )
I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !
Yes it is, when it is understood that they think an infinite number of universes exist, just so that randomness apparently needn't occur. It is insanity because it defies the fundamental principles of science.
You think so? Which specific principles? Please be explicit: this is necessary in science, as you would surely acknowledge.
Consider one nice piece of evidence for the validity of the MWH - the Feynman interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this, you find that if you take (literally) every possible path that a particle could take, given the observations, and add together the complex numbers that are determined solely by the length of the path, then you get predictions which are consistent with that of all the other interpretations of quantum mechanics. Indeed it is reasonable to consider the Schroedinger wave equation as a way of representing the time-dependent evolution of this sum of all possible paths.
The principles of science are based in observation. Making measurements, collecting data of verifiable, empirical evidence. The existence of infinite multi-verses can not be observed nor measured, it lies outside the realm of science. Elroch has his a priori beliefs, like everybody else, he simply gets side-tracked by the numbers.
You should see him get side-tracked in open discussion, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
The principles of science are based in observation. Making measurements, collecting data of verifiable, empirical evidence. The existence of infinite multi-verses can not be observed nor measured, it lies outside the realm of science. Elroch has his a priori beliefs, like everybody else, he simply gets side-tracked by the numbers.
No, I merely point out that the MWH is an economical (simple and elegant, a la Occam's razor) interpretation of QM that is entirely successful. Moreover, as time has gone by, physicists have become increasingly enthusiastic about this interpretation.
It is possible that it is a pointer to a deeper truth than the testable science, but that is something about which I would reserve judgement rather than believe.
I luvd that one Zebra ! and i get it. cuz they say that Guinea has the lowest ave IQ in the world. s/t like 59. so wonderful story !
I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !
Anyway, not sure I follow the last part of your statement in this text..
but to whole-heartedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !
funny thing King. at first ?....i thought mwh meant math whole-heartedly...lol !
lol yeah.. I was thinking that water in the presence of sunlight kinda rocks too.
Bar Mars then.
I suspect certain people were being ironic?
I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !
Yes it is, when it is understood that they think an infinite number of universes exist, just so that randomness apparently needn't occur. It is insanity because it defies the fundamental principles of science.
You think so? Which specific principles? Please be explicit: this is necessary in science, as you would surely acknowledge.
I have a friend who has a friend who knows a man
Who likes to play the pipes of Pan
He told me. He has a kwolifikayshun.
Consider one nice piece of evidence for the validity of the MWH
Is that the Many Worlds Happening?
- the Feynman interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this, you find that if you take (literally) every possible path that a particle could take, given the observations, and add together the complex numbers that are determined solely by the length of the path, then you get predictions which are consistent with that of all the other interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Yes, you would do. It's quite intuitively likely. Just more of it, though. After all, everything's the same shape however you measure it.
<<Indeed it is reasonable to consider the Schroedinger wave equation as a way of representing the time-dependent evolution of this sum of all possible paths.>>
Yes of course, but that doesn't mean it's real.
I suspect certain people are going to like this commercial for the wrong reasons 
I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !
Yes it is, when it is understood that they think an infinite number of universes exist, just so that randomness apparently needn't occur. It is insanity because it defies the fundamental principles of science.
You think so? Which specific principles? Please be explicit: this is necessary in science, as you would surely acknowledge.
I have a friend who has a friend who knows a man
Who likes to play the pipes of Pan
He told me. He has a kwolifikayshun.
Consider one nice piece of evidence for the validity of the MWH
Is that the Many Worlds Happening?
Near enough - Multiple Worlds Hypothesis (the idea that everything possible is happening all of the time).
- the Feynman interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this, you find that if you take (literally) every possible path that a particle could take, given the observations, and add together the complex numbers that are determined solely by the length of the path, then you get predictions which are consistent with that of all the other interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Yes, you would do. It's quite intuitively likely. Just more of it, though. After all, everything's the same shape however you measure it.
<<Indeed it is reasonable to consider the Schroedinger wave equation as a way of representing the time-dependent evolution of this sum of all possible paths.>>
Yes of course, but that doesn't mean it's real.
The classical notion of "reality" has disappeared from physics (unless you include the possibility of the reality of the infinite dimensional, continually infinitely branching multiverse).
This is because there never is a definite state which determines the future. Rather there are statistics which influence future statistics in a quantifiable way.
I know it is uncomfortable to give up the idea of definiteness, but it was not discarded lightly. The nearest to reality is any of the interpretations that correctly predict statistics, but not some preferred one of them.
It is not completely possible that this will change in the future, but I have not seen anyone suggest how it might.
Bar Mars then.
I suspect certain people were being ironic?
This one was, anyhow.
The classical notion of "reality" has disappeared from physics [making it no longer physics] (unless you include the possibility of the reality of the infinite dimensional, continually infinitely branching multiverse). [Russell's Teapot blither]
This is because there never is a definite state which determines the future. Rather there are statistics which influence future statistics in a quantifiable way. [oh, so now we're talking about statistics. Not interested in bouncing around the room w/ ur brainstorms. sorry.]
I know it is uncomfortable to give up the idea of definiteness [it only is for u cuz ur scared. alotta ppl welcome it], but it was not discarded lightly. The nearest to reality is any of the interpretations that correctly predict statistics, but not some preferred one of them. [blah blah blah]
It is not completely possible that this will change in the future, but I have not seen anyone suggest how it might. [.....and dont getchur hopes up]
kooky psychobabble. u needta stop plonking.
I lean more towards madness, sheer madness !
It is insanity because it defies the fundamental principles of science.
this is necessary in science, as you would surely acknowledge.
I have a friend.
evidence for the validity of the MWH
Is that the Many Worlds Happening?
Near enough
- Multiple Worlds Hypothesis (the idea that everything possible is happening all of the time).
you find that if you take (literally) every possible path, then you get all the other interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Just more of it, though everything's the same shape however you measure it.
<<Indeed it is reasonable.>>
that doesn't mean it's real.
The classical notion of "reality" has disappeared from physics (unless you include the possibility of the reality of the infinite dimensional, continually infinitely branching multiverse).
And this brings us to modern times, or today, which is notable in that you say that physics has dispensed with reality. Actually, that's what I've been trying to tell you. You see it as an unmitigated positive and I see it more as a mitigated negative. Today's colour is .... orange!
This is because there never is a definite state which determines the future. Rather there are statistics which influence future statistics in a quantifiable way.
Yes, we've been discussing determinism and we're agreed, you and I. Certainly, if you rerun time backwards you may get a distinct past, but imagining that you can reverse that again and rerun time forwards and you are bound to get exactly this reality isn't provable and I would say and you also would say it's a false assumption.
<<I know it is uncomfortable to give up the idea of definiteness, but it was not discarded lightly. The nearest to reality is any of the interpretations that correctly predict statistics, but not some preferred one of them.>>
Again, we agree. You put it clearly, which I enjoy.
<<<It is not completely possible that this will change in the future, but I have not seen anyone suggest how it might.>>>
I think that "might" is a far cry from "definitely will and in the manner desired" but what I suggested before, just by properly focussed thought, seems to some people that it might work. I think there are others here in this thread who wouldn't reject the notion out of hand. I know it seems to be an uncomfortable idea.
Regarding the preamble leading up to today's conversation, I enjoyed myself slightly my editing out some bits, leaving only the true kernels of wisdom from all sides of the argument. I didn't add anything. Not even a comma.
Now I've read your feet .... a tall, dark stranger will come into your life ..... your instinctive side presides over your rational side, which is also quite strong but sometimes you ignore it ......
Opti, i have no desire to live my life w/ the wrong side a my brain. boring. i let my <3 lead the way cuz doing o/w would be cheating on it. besides, its only there to keep me alive and 4me2 give away....as i've never really owned it. and u can have my feet. they're peddied & saltwater soaked & hygiene clean. but u'll have to give me a piggyback ride places if u take'm....upon my demand
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